St.Paul's Sues AHSAA over Discriminatory Rule.

colbysullivan · May 27, 2018

81usaf92 said:
Ask Krazy if USA is his team because he graduated there....

Ahh yes, the University of the United States. I hear they are so small they don’t even have a basketball team...

CaliforniaTide · May 27, 2018

230kv_barehand said:
Dude, you make it sound like St. Paul's is some tiny private school that can't compete.

You are right, there are MANY public schools that recruit too.

The rule counts points over 3 years, it forces the private schools to play up if they are "dominating" a lower division. I think it is a good rule.

Agreed.

They are. A lot of the AISA schools are sure enough strapped for cash. A lot of the privates in the AHSAA are pretty well off. Not all mind you, but the majority are not hurting.

It has NOTHING to do with work ethic. This has to do with private schools DOMINATING certain sports. I will show some examples later.

Yep it's forcing them to go up only in certain sports and only if they are dominating. People act like if St. Paul's wins one title that they are moving up and it doesn't work that way. If you build up a certain amount of points in one class over 3 years, then you're moving up. If a school is moving up then that means they are dominating and there should be punishment for it. Like it has been mentioned, schools like St. Paul's can recruit and get almost any top athlete from the area and in the meantime that player left a public school and was probably their only great player and now won't win 3 games while St. Paul's wins the division. This is why the privates are being penalized.

No the private schools can leave the AHSAA any time they want to and play in the AISA which is nothing but private schools. They choose to play in the AHSAA because they know they can compete in EVERY sport.

You bet your "you know what" there are. The AISA and the majority of their schools were formed in 1969-1970 which was the same years we de-segregated. The AISA schools can deny enrollment to any kid for a list of reasons if they want to. That's why they have NOTHING to do with the AHSAA.

Alabama has 99 kids listed on their roster and Brandon Kennedy has not been taken off yet. But counting everyone, Bama has around 25 private school kids. The barn lists 92 kids, and has about 17 roughly.

The rule doesn't punish all sports at the private schools. The rule ONLY APPLIES to those sports they are dominating in and that's it. You could be 5A in football and 6A in baseball. This does not force private schools to move every sport up a class.
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All the percentages are titles since 2000 won by private schools. This is the main reason this went into effect, not anything football related.

Tennis-Girls 69.2%
Out of 78 total state titles, 54 have been won by private schools.

Golf-Boys 62.6%
Out of 99 total state titles, 62 have been won by private schools. UMS-Wright has 12 titles since 2000, St. Paul's has 11, while both are on 3-peats as we speak. Both have had 4-peats as well. Montgomery Academy had 9 of 10 at one point with 6 in a row. St. Paul's also had 8 of 13 titles at one point as well.

Tennis-Boys 52.6%
Out of 76 total state titles, 40 have been won by private schools. No public school has won a title in 1A-4A since Cherokee County won 4A in 1999.

Soccer-Boys 50.8%
Out of 61 total state titles, 31 have been won by private schools. Randolph has 8 state titles since 2000 and have also won back to back titles. John Carroll-Catholic also won 4 of 5 at one point since 2000.

Outdoor Track-Girls 50%
Out of 118 total state titles, 59 have been won by private schools. Whitesburg Christian currently has won the last 4 state titles in a row. Altamont won 8 in a row at one point. St. Paul's has 12 state titles since 2000 with winning 8 in a row at one point.

Volleyball 50%
Out of 112 total state titles, 56 have been won by private schools. McGill-Toolen won 5 of 6 at one point and are defending champs now. Bayside Academy has won 17 of the last 18 titles including 16 in a row between 2A and 3A.

Soccer-Girls 50%
Out of 60 total state titles, 30 have been won by private schools. John Carroll-Catholic has won 4 of the last 5 titles, Montgomery Academy has won 7 overall since 2000 with a current streak of back to back titles.

Indoor Track-Girls 49%
Out of 49 total state titles, 24 have been won by private schools. St. Paul's has won the last 9 state titles in 4A-5A and 5A. Altamont had 5 in a row at one point, and American Christian is on a current 4-peat run in 1A-3A.

Cross Country-Boys 43.8%
Out of 89 total state titles, 39 private schools won titles. American Christian currently has a 4 in a row streak. Westminster Christian-Oak Mountain has back to back titles currently. UMS-Wright had 4 in a row at one point. Shades Mountain Christian had 3 in a row. Montgomery Academy had 3 in a row. Randolph had 9 in a row at one point.

Cross Country-Girls 41.6%
Out of 89 total state titles, 37 titles have went to private schools. Westminster Christian-Oak Mountain has a current 3 year title streak in 1A/2A. Randolph has 3 in a row in 4A. UMS-Wright had 7 out of 10 4A titles including five in a row at one point. Altamont won 3 in a row in 1A/2A. American Christian had 5 in a row in 1A/2A.

Swimming & Diving-Girls 31.8%
Out of 22 total state titles, 7 have been won by private schools. Westminster Christian has won back to back titles in 1A-5A.

Baseball 29.7%
This is why the rule was put in place. Out of 118 possible schools since 2000, privates won 35 baseball titles. American Christian alone has won 5 titles since 2000 including 3 in a row and the second run was 2 out of 3. Shoals Christian has won 4 titles including 3 in a row since 2000. Mobile Christian has won 3 of the last 4 with two in a row in 2A and the last in 3A this year and that's just back to 2015.

Indoor Track-Boys 28.6%
Out of 49 total state titles, 14 have been won by private schools. American Christian has won the last two 1A-3A titles. UMS-Wright won 5 of 6 at one point and has 6 overall titles since 2000.

Outdoor Track-Boys 28%
Out of 118 total state titles, 33 have been won by private schools. American Christian is on a back to back title streak as is Westminster-Oak Mountain. UMS-Wright has won 14 state titles since 2000 with 8 being all in a row. St. Paul's has 8 titles since 2000 with 7 being in a row.

Swimming & Diving-Boys 22.7%
Out of 22 total state titles, 5 have been won by private schools. St. Paul's have won the last 4 in a row in 1A-5A.

Softball 17.4%
Out of 115 total state titles, 20 have been won by private schools. Alabama Christian leads the way with 6 since 2000.

Golf-Girls 16.2%
Out of 37 total state titles, 6 have been won by private schools. Providence Christian is currently back to back champs in 1A-3A.

Football 15.1%
Out of 119 total state titles, 18 private schools have won titles. St. Paul's and UMS-Wright are on back to back streaks right now. St. Paul's have also won 4 out of the last 5 titles. Madison Academy had 3 in a row. UMS-Wright has won 7 titles since 2000 and St. Paul's have won 5 since 2000. Yet the original poster would have you think St. Paul's are just a bunch of small kids who were getting slaughtered by bigger schools.

Basketball-Boys 14.4%
17 total private school wins since 2000. St. Jude has won 2 out of 3 years in 1A and then back to back again in 13 and 14 for a total of 4, Madison Academy had 3 in a row ending in 2008 and then 3 out of 5 ending in 2015 with 6 total since 2000. Sacred Heart of Anniston has won the last FOUR state titles in 1A. A public school has NOT won a 1A title in boys basketball since 2012.

Basketball-Girls 4.2%
Only 5 private school titles since 2000. Of those, 4A Madison Academy has a current back to back state title streak.

Wrestling 0%
Out of 57 chances, no private school has won a Wrestling state title.

Bowling-Girls 0%
Out of 8 years, nothing but public schools have won titles.

Bowling-Boys 0%
Only 2 years of awarding titles and both belong to a public school.

I know the discussion is focused on how the competitive balance rule affects private schools, but Homewood, Mountain Brook, Hoover, and Auburn have dominated the XC and track championships in the higher divisions. Grissom dominated XC in the 1980s. The same competitive balance rule can just as easily applied to the public schools.

81usaf92 · May 27, 2018

CaliforniaTide said:
I know the discussion is focused on how the competitive balance rule affects private schools, but Homewood, Mountain Brook, Hoover, and Auburn have dominated the XC and track championships in the higher divisions. Grissom dominated XC in the 1980s. The same competitive balance rule can just as easily applied to the public schools.

Homewood hasn’t been dominating since AHSAA started cracking down on their shady book cooking that allowed them to go to 5A by 1 or 2 students. The 7A classification has prevented a lot of this crap.

Hoover hasn’t been as great since Propst got fired and they weren’t under the microscope. Sure they are still the premier team in the state, but competition has gotten closer. The 7A classification also forces them to play harder teams than they were on a more frequent bases.

So the public schools aspect of it has mostly been addressed.

UAllday · May 28, 2018

Crimson1967 · May 28, 2018

Thanks for the research, 230.

Interesting the privates haven’t done much in wrestling while they do in Tennessee. The sport is just now starting to make inroads in Mobile. I wonder if St. Paul’s will become a power in wrestling.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CaliforniaTide · May 28, 2018

81usaf92 said:
Homewood hasn’t been dominating since AHSAA started cracking down on their shady book cooking that allowed them to go to 5A by 1 or 2 students. The 7A classification has prevented a lot of this crap.

Hoover hasn’t been as great since Propst got fired and they weren’t under the microscope. Sure they are still the premier team in the state, but competition has gotten closer. The 7A classification also forces them to play harder teams than they were on a more frequent bases.

So the public schools aspect of it has mostly been addressed.

I was speaking specifically to XC and track...

CrimsonProf · May 28, 2018

CaliforniaTide said:
I know the discussion is focused on how the competitive balance rule affects private schools, but Homewood, Mountain Brook, Hoover, and Auburn have dominated the XC and track championships in the higher divisions. Grissom dominated XC in the 1980s. The same competitive balance rule can just as easily applied to the public schools.

Running is part of OTM culture in a way that it is not at suburban/rural schools. It's like fan support for basketball at UK as opposed to the rest of the SEC.

TrampLineman · May 28, 2018

Crimson1967 said:
Thanks for the research, 230.

Interesting the privates haven’t done much in wrestling while they do in Tennessee. The sport is just now starting to make inroads in Mobile. I wonder if St. Paul’s will become a power in wrestling.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think they just don't compete much in wrestling. I haven't looked to see how many compete.

Many will look at the percentages and think big deal, but what they don't realize is the percentage of privates in each class are pretty small so when they are winning over 1/4 of the titles it becomes a big deal. That is the main reason the rule has been put in. The OP trying to use St. Paul's and football is what makes this thread funny because they are definitely not some small weak football program who gets stomped all the time like say Ellwood Christian in 1A.

CoachJeff · May 28, 2018

You’ll notice that it’s not just a private v public thing, it’s often the public schools that are in their own district, ie Vestavia, Mtn Brook, Auburn, Hoover, etc.

CrimsonProf · May 29, 2018

CoachJeff said:
You’ll notice that it’s not just a private v public thing, it’s often the public schools that are in their own district, ie Vestavia, Mtn Brook, Auburn, Hoover, etc.

Correct - consolidated resources with maximum buy-in from admins, parents, coaches, faculty, students, and community brings about massive results - not just in athletics. Larger county/city districts are at a major disadvantage here, but it's mostly one of their own making.

CrimSonami · May 29, 2018

Anyone who follows, watches, plays, played at a public HS knows there's a certain amount of recruiting that happens . It's everywhere to some degree. It happened 40 years ago, happens today and will continue to happen. The cold hard fact is private schools do it openly and attract elite athletes in doing so with waiver of the enrollment and attendance cost so they should be evaluated and classified differently. I'm not sure winning percentage and titles and/or playoff appearances is the way to fairly accomplish the intent but there does have to be some method of leveling the field. At some point I'm sure the current format will be modified. How is yet TBD.

TomFromBama · May 29, 2018

Skeeterpop said:
Every School buys its championships.

Private Schools do it with familes and donors money.

Public schools do it with the Government funds. *news flash* which is everyone of ours money. So those of us who send kids to private school pay for our kids and everyones elses who go to public school. I sure would love to get a check from millions in the state to help pay for my kids education. How fair does that sound?

Bingo - For years I joked that our "Beach House" our "Ski Vacation" our "fishing boat" and our "new cars" (AND our "Tide Pride Seats"!!!) were all on Dogwood Drive. We aren't wealthy, and it was a hardship for us to send our kids to private school (AND pay the same taxes as everyone else). None of our kids were varsity athletes and we never thought any of them would be. We didn't send them there to "cheat" at football, but to get a quality education. And every one of our kids left SPS at least one offer of a "full ride" academic scholarship to college.

And lets be a little more honest here, shall we? How many of the larger Public Schools have "Booster Clubs" that raise TONS of money to supplement their football programs? This is the case at most of the larger public schools in South Alabama, and I'd be shocked if this wasn't the case at all the more successful public programs across the State.

PLUS with a large enrollment you have the political power to influence the County and Municipal governments to throw in extra money to your program - again, I've watched it happen, ESPECIALLY at certain larger Baldwin County public schools.
Every Private school in South Alabama built their own stadiums. Have you seen the AWESOME stadiums we are building for all the public schools - with tax dollars.........
Can you imagine the City of Mobile even thinking for a Fraction of a second about spending Three-Quarters of a MILLION DOLLARS to put in an artificial turf field at SPS or McGill or UMS or Faith???? And yet, it nearly happened for a certain public school across the bay - until the public found out, and other public schools demanded the same treatment.....

So lets not pretend that we are talking about IMG vs. Hale County, ok? No one that's even remotely aware of the reality believes that or a minute.

81usaf92 · May 29, 2018

TomFromBama said:
Bingo - For years I joked that our "Beach House" our "Ski Vacation" our "fishing boat" and our "new cars" (AND our "Tide Pride Seats"!!!) were all on Dogwood Drive. We aren't wealthy, and it was a hardship for us to send our kids to private school (AND pay the same taxes as everyone else). None of our kids were varsity athletes and we never thought any of them would be. We didn't send them there to "cheat" at football, but to get a quality education. And every one of our kids left SPS at least one offer of a "full ride" academic scholarship to college.

And lets be a little more honest here, shall we? How many of the larger Public Schools have "Booster Clubs" that raise TONS of money to supplement their football programs? This is the case at most of the larger public schools in South Alabama, and I'd be shocked if this wasn't the case at all the more successful public programs across the State.

PLUS with a large enrollment you have the political power to influence the County and Municipal governments to throw in extra money to your program - again, I've watched it happen, ESPECIALLY at certain larger Baldwin County public schools.
Every Private school in South Alabama built their own stadiums. Have you seen the AWESOME stadiums we are building for all the public schools - with tax dollars.........
Can you imagine the City of Mobile even thinking for a Fraction of a second about spending Three-Quarters of a MILLION DOLLARS to put in an artificial turf field at SPS or McGill or UMS or Faith???? And yet, it nearly happened for a certain public school across the bay - until the public found out, and other public schools demanded the same treatment.....

So lets not pretend that we are talking about IMG vs. Hale County, ok? No one that's even remotely aware of the reality believes that or a minute.

Lol. Y’all have OWNED EVERYONE in YOUR NEW REGION yet y’all act like Spanish Fort and Daphne are sooooo above and beyond y’all. What this really is about is that St Paul’s knows they owned Mobile from 14-17 but not 10-13. Stop acting like it’s so unrealistic for St Paul’s to win a State Championship in 6A or compete for one. Because they have historically proven more than capable.

When these poor county schools were complaining about Briawood and St Paul’s all these years the response was “ if you don’t like it then beat us”. Now since we finally got an AHSAA that sided with the county schools the response is “ we are being discriminated for whooping up on poor county schools that we pillage for talent.” If y’all don’t like it the AISA is still open. Briarwood was forced to move up to 6A and play TRUE monesters years ago. Where were you Saints then???? St Paul’s didn’t care because it wasn’t y’all then.

St Paul’s is the equivalent of Phenix City Little league in the 90’s in that they possessed a special advantage that the governing organization turned a blind eye for years. Phenix city fans just said “it’s just a game so move on” smiling as they said it when other Alabama districts pointed out that they had kids from Columbus Georgia on their 2 TEAMS while everyone had just 1 team and strict district rules. But a new administration took over and sided with the majority of the other teams in that they believed it was an unfair advantage. Once the tables turned It wasn’t “just a game” anymore and the complaining started

For me, I’m finally glad to see a SF-St Paul’s game because it’s a good competitive game in 6A. I think as a football fan it is a dream come true.

pigsinspace · May 29, 2018

This has me thinking about some new public schools and the recruiting advantage they have. Locally, I know that Park Crossing could not have become so good so fast if they were not poaching talent from the old schools in Montgomery. My guess is that some of the best talent zoned for Carver suddenly found themselves living across town, since they were a solid team until Park Crossing came along, and some of the remaining talent from the other schools not already recruited by Prattville or the private schools probably went there too.
There is also the Edgewood Dynasty. They dominated AISA until they had a falling out with their coach, reportedly over recruiting more black players. I don't know where those players went, but I noticed that Wetumpka just had their best year ever, while Stanhope flopped. I did see a fee seventh and eighth grade Wetumpka games, and they did not impress me. Two years later, they are in the Super Seven. Wetumpka is slightly closer to Edgewood, so it is possible that most of the talent that left after the coach did ended up becoming Indians. I won't complain if they did, especially if they win one more game this year.

RTR91 · May 30, 2018

pigsinspace said:
This has me thinking about some new public schools and the recruiting advantage they have. Locally, I know that Park Crossing could not have become so good so fast if they were not poaching talent from the old schools in Montgomery. My guess is that some of the best talent zoned for Carver suddenly found themselves living across town, since they were a solid team until Park Crossing came along, and some of the remaining talent from the other schools not already recruited by Prattville or the private schools probably went there too.
There is also the Edgewood Dynasty. They dominated AISA until they had a falling out with their coach, reportedly over recruiting more black players. I don't know where those players went, but I noticed that Wetumpka just had their best year ever, while Stanhope flopped. I did see a fee seventh and eighth grade Wetumpka games, and they did not impress me. Two years later, they are in the Super Seven. Wetumpka is slightly closer to Edgewood, so it is possible that most of the talent that left after the coach did ended up becoming Indians. I won't complain if they did, especially if they win one more game this year.

Without saying too much, I'll just say some of the schools you reference won this past year because players moved out of a bad situation (coaching staff, etc.). During the moving process, friends talk and decide to play together if it's possible.

I know that seems too basic and not really true, but it is.

An example of a bad situation - college is hosting a 7-on-7 camp and the area recruiter mentions to a head coach "We would love to be able to see ________ at DB a little today if possible." Coach agrees, but he never puts that player at DB during the camp for recruiting film. Things become evident to player and parents that the head coach might not have the player's best interest at heart, so they start looking elsewhere.

TomFromBama · May 30, 2018

B1GTide said:
Let's be honest. You just want your team to win State championships. The weaker the competition, the more championships you will win. I get it and don't have a problem with it, but let's face it.

BBiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggoooooooooo!!!!!!!

"No more calls, please! We HAVE a Winner!!!!"

That's ALL that's going on here - and in the AHSAA..... Hurt feelings from the "Everyone should get a Trophy" crowd.

81usaf92 · May 30, 2018

TomFromBama said:
BBiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggoooooooooo!!!!!!!

"No more calls, please! We HAVE a Winner!!!!"

That's ALL that's going on here - and in the AHSAA..... Hurt feelings from the "Everyone should get a Trophy" crowd.

If this was a huge issue for you, then where were you in 2012 & 2013 when Briarwood was playing at 6A? That’s right you and the Saints didn’t care because that allowed y’all a better chance to win, but SF saw to it that y’all couldn’t. So now y’all care because it’s tougher competition in which winning isn’t a guarantee.

All this argument is about is the public schools having to endure this competitive disadvantage for years and years in 4A and 5A while the private schools just said “ beat us or shut up”. Now that the shoe is finally on the other foot St Paul’s acts like whiny man babies and takes this to federal court because their sham dynasty is in jeopardy because the AHSAA has sided with public schools for once .

RTR91 · May 30, 2018

81usaf92 said:
If this was a huge issue for you, then where were you in 2012 & 2013 when Briarwood was playing at 6A? That’s right you and the Saints didn’t care because that allowed y’all a better chance to win, but SF saw to it that y’all couldn’t. So now y’all care because it’s tougher competition in which winning isn’t a guarantee.

All this argument is about is the public schools having to endure this competitive disadvantage for years and years in 4A and 5A while the private schools just said “ beat us or shut up”. Now that the shoe is finally on the other foot St Paul’s acts like whiny man babies and takes this to federal court because their sham dynasty is in jeopardy because the AHSAA has sided with public schools for once .

There's a noticeable difference in working hard to beat your opponent compared to creating a rule to help beat your opponent.

81usaf92 · May 30, 2018

RTR91 said:
There's a noticeable difference in working hard to beat your opponent compared to creating a rule to help beat your opponent.

Yeah. And St Paul’s should figure out how to work hard enough to beat SF, Daphne, and BC Rain. Or go to the AISA.

TomFromBama · May 30, 2018

GrayTide said:
I looked at both Alabama and Auburn current rosters. I only counted what I could identify as private schools in Alabama. Alabama had 5 players on its roster and Auburn had 4 from Alabama. There were other players from private schools from other states, but the vast majority of both teams rosters come from public schools. Alabama had 1 player from St Pauls, and Auburn had 1 player from Briarwood. So while these schools may win big by recruiting they obviously do not produce FBS talent, at least good enough to play for Alabama or Auburn.

Hmmm.... Gosh, reading this thread I figured that SPS must be just like IMG, and sending ALL their players to Alabama and aubarn, or at least to P-5 schools?????

I don't claim to follow HS football as closely as some, but it seems to me that it's pretty unusual for any private school in South Alabama to put more than 1 kid a year into an SEC program. It happens, but it's not a common occurrence, and when it does happen its usually McGill, who plays in 7A anyway.

How about a snapshot from the other side? 24/7 recruiting database for the class of 2017. Just how "Loaded" is this invincible "recruiting machine" at St. Paul's that no other school could possibly compete with?

SPS - 4 kids listed. 1 Four star, 1 Three Star, 2 Two stars. 1 SEC Signee. But it wasn't the 4 star kid. He signed with Stanford, so obviously he was just a "dumb jock" and a "ringer", "recruited" solely for his football skills...
Oh, and he had been a student at SPS since the Seventh grade.

Compare that treasure trove of super stocked talent to "poor" Spanish Fort, who "doesn't recruit" - 4 kids - 2 Three stars, 2 two stars. 1 SEC Signee - so clearly, as between "mighty" SPS with its nearly 3A size enrollment and poor little Spanish Fort with its 6A enrollment, the deck is TOTALLY stacked against Spanish Fort and there's no possible way they can be expected to compete!

Just down the road, in the adjacent school district, we find Daphne HS - a program that's won State Titles and put a bunch of kids in the SEC. (TJ Yeldon's HS, if memory serves) - 24/7 says they didn't have a single kid listed in the 2017 class. Then again, I've heard that lately a lot of the better football players' families have moved to the Spanish Fort school district. Wink, Wink......

Looking at the 7 divisions in Alabama HS football, This past season it appears that Public Schools accounted for TEN (10) of the 14 teams playing in the Championship games, and public schools WON FIVE (5) of the 7 State Titles. So yea, when Public schools can ONLY claim 71% of the State finalist slots and State Titles, CLEARLY there's a MASSIVE and UNFAIR Competitive Advantage!!!

OR, maybe there's just a massive case of adult DIAPER RASH at the AHSAA???.......... Gee, I wonder which one it might be??? LOL!!!!!

St.Paul's Sues AHSAA over Discriminatory Rule.

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