St.Paul's Sues AHSAA over Discriminatory Rule.

TomFromBama

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When my kids were in school I watched St. Paul's squads line up against schools (some of whom are now 6A, like Vigor, Saraland and Spanish Fort) - and in a LOT of those games they looked like a JV team lining up against Seniors. Sometimes almost every kid on an opponent's OL And DL were half-a-head (or more) taller than the SPS kid they were lining up against.
Dude, you make it sound like St. Paul's is some tiny private school that can't compete.
I never said SPS was "getting slaughtered by bigger schools". In fact, the "Problem" for the AHSAA is that SPS is NOT getting "slaughtered".

The whole point of taking a school FIVE kids over class 3A and making them play in 5A is PRECISELY SO THEY WILL BE SLAUGHTERED.

When that didn't play out according to plan, the AHSAA now decides to punish these schools by moving them up ANOTHER class ranking, in hopes that they WILL be Slaughtered in 6A.

This is NOT about "Equal Opportunity" - it's about Equal RESULTS.

Big Difference.



Rural schools might not do it much, but that's only because the pickings are slim and resources are very limited. Your original statement indicated only private schools do it. That's just not true.
You are right, there are MANY public schools that recruit too.
Yea, but we don't like to talk about that, do we? ;)
 

B1GTide

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This is all about championships, not regular season games. Fans want to move them up so their teams can win more championships. This is all about that one thing.
 

81usaf92

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I never said SPS was "getting slaughtered by bigger schools". In fact, the "Problem" for the AHSAA is that SPS is NOT getting "slaughtered".

The whole point of taking a school FIVE kids over class 3A and making them play in 5A is PRECISELY SO THEY WILL BE SLAUGHTERED.

When that didn't play out according to plan, the AHSAA now decides to punish these schools by moving them up ANOTHER class ranking, in hopes that they WILL be Slaughtered in 6A.

This is NOT about "Equal Opportunity" - it's about Equal RESULTS.

Big Difference.





Yea, but we don't like to talk about that, do we? ;)
Again St Paul’s has beaten SF more times in the last 10 years than they have y’all. If y’all are going to get slaughtered then explain why the record is 6-4 St Paul’s Mr Saint or is Mr Ain’t caring unless it’s St Paul’s getting moved up.
 

81usaf92

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This is all about championships, not regular season games. Fans want to move them up so their teams can win more championships. This is all about that one thing.
Nope try again. #1 and # 2 in a region gets a first round home game so I’m afraid this is still about regular and post season performance.
 

TomFromBama

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There's a noticeable difference in working hard to beat your opponent compared to creating a rule to help beat your opponent.
Which has been my point from the beginning.

Pretty much everyone here shakes their head every time the NZAA comes out with a new "Saban Rule" to try to slow down Alabama. But some of us do NOT think the same logic applies to HS sports.......
 

RTR91

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Yeah. And St Paul’s should figure out how to work hard enough to beat SF, Daphne, and BC Rain. Or go to the AISA.
As we've repeatedly stated, they've already overcome the first rule - the multiplier.

Now, people are whining for another rule to stop them.
 

81usaf92

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As we've repeatedly stated, they've already overcome the first rule - the multiplier that was put in place for the Super 6.

Now, St Paul’s people are whining about a rule Voted Unanimously by the AHSAA to make them play equally talented teams in the Super 7
Fify
 

rolltide_21

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Thought this might go well here and each side can interpret it as they wish-
https://www.al.com/expo/erry-2018/05/9211a53c805677/which_alabama_high_school_won.html

Details which AL high schools won the most state championships this year. Homewood led the way with six. I understand the new proposed rule could move up individual sports not the whole program (if Im reading it correctly). Still, you can see which sports programs, public or private, are dominating their classification.
 

TomFromBama

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Thought this might go well here and each side can interpret it as they wish-
https://www.al.com/expo/erry-2018/05/9211a53c805677/which_alabama_high_school_won.html

Details which AL high schools won the most state championships this year. Homewood led the way with six. I understand the new proposed rule could move up individual sports not the whole program (if Im reading it correctly). Still, you can see which sports programs, public or private, are dominating their classification.
Multiple State Title winners:
Schools that won TWO State Titles: 6 Public, 5 Private.
Schools that won FOUR titles: 1 Public, 2 Private
Schools that won FIVE titles: 2 Public, 2 private
Schools that won SIX Titles: 1 Public. Period.

Total Multi-title winners: 10 Public, 9 private.

AND, just to recap my prior post - 7 State football divisions - Public schools won FIVE, Private schools won TWO.

Clearly, the "Problem" here is that public schools are only slightly dominant, and not enjoying unfettered hegemony over private schools. :rolleyes:
 

81usaf92

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Multiple State Title winners:
Schools that won TWO State Titles: 6 Public, 5 Private.
Schools that won FOUR titles: 1 Public, 2 Private
Schools that won FIVE titles: 2 Public, 2 private
Schools that won SIX Titles: 1 Public. Period.

Total Multi-title winners: 10 Public, 9 private.

AND, just to recap my prior post - 7 State football divisions - Public schools won FIVE, Private schools won TWO.

Clearly, the "Problem" here is that public schools are only slightly dominant, and not enjoying unfettered hegemony over private schools. :rolleyes:
Yeah and I still count 4 SF wins to 6 St Paul’s wins so clearly The Saints can’t compete with Spanish Fort. So where is the big bad Bob one county schools that you speak of that the Saints can’t compete with?
 

RTR91

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The actual basis of the lawsuit might have gotten lost in all of the back and forth.

Because of the multiplier, private schools are already playing in a classification made of teams with more student population. Add in the competitive balance rule, the teams that move up are now playing against teams with an even larger student population. Theoretically, larger student population equals larger roster. The safety of players is the reason for the lawsuit.

While a school might have a winning record against a single program from a higher classification, doesn't mean things are going to remain a cakewalk against that competition on a weekly basis when the competition routinely has a more players.

Think back to Boise. They liked to crow about how they could beat a P5 team at the start of the season or during a bowl game. The retort has always been - "Yeah, but can you do it over a 12 week season?" The same applies here.
 

81usaf92

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The actual basis of the lawsuit might have gotten lost in all of the back and forth.

Because of the multiplier, private schools are already playing in a classification made of teams with more student population. Add in the competitive balance rule, the teams that move up are now playing against teams with an even larger student population. Theoretically, larger student population equals larger roster. The safety of players is the reason for the lawsuit.

While a school might have a winning record against a single program from a higher classification, doesn't mean things are going to remain a cakewalk against that competition on a weekly basis when the competition routinely has a more players.

Think back to Boise. They liked to crow about how they could beat a P5 team at the start of the season or during a bowl game. The retort has always been - "Yeah, but can you do it over a 12 week season?" The same applies here.
Well that’s all fine and good and dandy, but not in this case. Most of the teams that they were playing in their region now they have played in 5A. But because of the super seven, most of the schools moved up. Since that move up Saint Pauls has dominated the Mobile area 858 and has won three out of four state championships. You cannot present a single piece of evidence to suggest that they cannot compete and are fully capable of competition at that level. The only team that they have not played in that classification is Daphne but because of the super seven, most of the schools moved up. Since that move up Saint Pauls has dominated the Mobile area at for 58 and has won three out of four state championships. You cannot present as single piece of evidence to suggest that they cannot compete and are fully capable of competition at that level. The only team that they have not played in that classification is Daphne

So let’s stop acting like they haven’t played the schedule before because they did five years ago and they still made it to the playoffs.
http://www.ahsfhs.org/Teams2/gamesbyyear.asp?year=2013&Team=st.+pauls
 
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RTR91

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Well that’s all fine and good and dandy, but not in this case. Most of the teams that they were playing in their region now they have played in 5A. But because of the super seven, most of the schools moved up. Since that move up Saint Pauls has dominated the Mobile area 858 and has won three out of four state championships. You cannot present a single piece of evidence to suggest that they cannot compete and are fully capable of competition at that level. The only team that they have not played in that classification is Daphne but because of the super seven, most of the schools moved up. Since that move up Saint Pauls has dominated the Mobile area at for 58 and has won three out of four state championships. You cannot present as single piece of evidence to suggest that they cannot compete and are fully capable of competition at that level. The only team that they have not played in that classification is Daphne

So let’s stop acting like they haven’t played the schedule before because they did five years ago and they still made it to the playoffs.
http://www.ahsfhs.org/Teams2/gamesbyyear.asp?year=2013&Team=st.+pauls
Why are you so hung up on St. Paul's? They aren't the only private school in AHSAA. They are just the ones that filed the lawsuit, and I'm willing to bet they aren't alone in this thinking.
 

81usaf92

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Why are you so hung up on St. Paul's? They aren't the only private school in AHSAA. They are just the ones that filed the lawsuit, and I'm willing to bet they aren't alone in this thinking.
Because the original poster made it out like Saint Pauls was this little school that couldnt play with Baldwin County schools. Which I have just clearly proven that they can and they will. And also I have heard no crying from Briarwood when they got put in 6A with real monsters a few years ago. And I certainly certainly haven’t heard any complaints from these poor old Saints about How Homewood could dress out a dang college football sideline and go up against smaller schools will barely 30 players. So you’re not gonna get any sympathy for me about Saint Pauls trying to complain about playing bigger competition. So that’s why am hung up on Saint Pauls to answer your question
 
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bamaltc

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I saw him (Kerryon)his senior year do the same thing to my old HS in the state championship game. Not only that, but their Oline looked like a D1 school.

I think it's B'S they can recruit who they want and then play against schools who can only pull from there district.

No sympathy from me!
Kerryon Johnson and Malik Miller both came to Madison Academy in elementary school. So you're saying they're recruiting 2nd graders?

I graduated from a 2A private school and all my children have attended there. It is laughable to hear the cries of "recruiting" and apply it to all private schools in the state. It might apply to a handful of the schools in this discussion, but I can say with certainty it doesn't apply to all private schools and definitely doesn't apply to Kerryon Johnson.
 

TomFromBama

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Why are you so hung up on St. Paul's? They aren't the only private school in AHSAA. They are just the ones that filed the lawsuit, and I'm willing to bet they aren't alone in this thinking.
I've wondered the same thing myself.......

FWIW, my kids went there for almost 20 years from the time my oldest started kindergarten until my youngest finished HS. Seems like every year one or more kids might get booted for drugs or grades or misconduct. My guess is that this poster, or one of his/her kids, might be in that category, considering the level of hatred and obsession. Or maybe he/she, or one of their kids, wasn't picked to get a supposed "Scholarship"? ;)

And as an aside, and just FWIW, I get a kick out of the whole "whining rich brats" angle. Maybe you could make that argument for UMS, but it doesn't hold as much water as some imagine when it comes to Saint Paul's. Yes, there are plenty of people of considerable means who send their kids there - After all, It's a VERY Strong academic school. At the same time, there are plenty of families (black and white) of relatively moderate means who choose to make personal sacrifices, to curtail their standard of living, so their kids can attend Saint Paul's, and benefit from that level of education. - That was certainly the case for us, and for a lot of the people we knew when our kids were in school there.

It's even more the case at McGill Toolen - there are plenty of people of moderate and even modest means who make lots of sacrifices to send kids to McGill, and "IMO" it's an investment well worth making, as McGill is also a good academic school.

But, as with all things, Opinions vary.

Bottom line for the whole argument re. the punitive new AHSAA rule, as well as the "multiplier", is that it's all based on a desire for Equality of OUTCOMES.
 

Titans&Tide

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I'm the president of the booster club at my kids' 1A private school. The only time we can afford to scholarship a student is when they qualify for the Alabama Opportunity Scholarship, which allows kids zoned for a failing school to attend a private school in their area with the costs fully covered.

The multiplier put us in 2A for several years and we got murdered in football. Here we were dressing 15-17 players and had to go against teams that dressed 40-50. It was unfair and got our kids injured a lot. So, using this proposed rule, let's say we start dominating 1A football or even 1A baseball. Now AHSAA can come in and tell us to move to 2A in those sports. Then we keep winning and they tell us we have to go to 3A? On no planet is that even remotely fair, regardless of how we got so good. Think about it. Our current multiplier-adjusted number of students is 149. We're actually about 100, making us an average 1A. Suddenly, even though we're good, we have to play a school with a minimum of triple our student body/potential athletes. We're still dressing 22-28 players and now we're up against 50-60.


Look, I know Briarwood and St. Paul's are good. And I also know that lots of folks get their knickers in a twist when a private school whips their butts consistently. Heck, our baseball team routinely beats local 3A-5A schools, but we haven't recruited a single ballplayer. Not one.

Creating a rule that is designed to punish private schools by making them play up even more is just wrong if it isn't applied to public schools as well. And I haven't heard anyone give a timeframe of when we can expect Maplesville and Sweet Water to jump to 2A.
 

TomFromBama

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I'm the president of the booster club at my kids' 1A private school. The only time we can afford to scholarship a student is when they qualify for the Alabama Opportunity Scholarship, which allows kids zoned for a failing school to attend a private school in their area with the costs fully covered.

The multiplier put us in 2A for several years and we got murdered in football. Here we were dressing 15-17 players and had to go against teams that dressed 40-50. It was unfair and got our kids injured a lot. So, using this proposed rule, let's say we start dominating 1A football or even 1A baseball. Now AHSAA can come in and tell us to move to 2A in those sports. Then we keep winning and they tell us we have to go to 3A? On no planet is that even remotely fair, regardless of how we got so good. Think about it. Our current multiplier-adjusted number of students is 149. We're actually about 100, making us an average 1A. Suddenly, even though we're good, we have to play a school with a minimum of triple our student body/potential athletes. We're still dressing 22-28 players and now we're up against 50-60.

Look, I know Briarwood and St. Paul's are good. And I also know that lots of folks get their knickers in a twist when a private school whips their butts consistently. Heck, our baseball team routinely beats local 3A-5A schools, but we haven't recruited a single ballplayer. Not one.

Creating a rule that is designed to punish private schools by making them play up even more is just wrong if it isn't applied to public schools as well. And I haven't heard anyone give a timeframe of when we can expect Maplesville and Sweet Water to jump to 2A.
The main point of the lawsuit is just what you say above - SAFETY. I'm not claiming SPS doesn't compete well with larger schools (quite the contrary, which is the cause of all the Butt-Hurt), but it's a plain fact that in more than a few of those games we saw SPS kids get hurt at a disproportionate rate as compared to the bigger school opponents' kids. It's just the reality when a school with (basically) the enrollment of a large 3A school must play a school with (basically) the enrollment of a 6A school; kids can get hurt.

FWIW, just this morning I heard an interview on the radio with the principal of a brand new HS in Baldwin County - St. Michael's HS. The school will be all of three years old next year, and it will be the first time they have 3 classes on campus (10th, 11th & 12 grades). They have an ambitious plan to play in a few AHSAA sports, including football. You'd think they'd get a break, being brand new and having a tiny enrollment, but based on the multiplier, and their projected enrollment for next fall, they expect to compete with 3A programs. Gee, wonder how that's going to go????
In fact, they are concerned about admitting "too many" kids and bumping their first time Varsity teams into 4A!! :eek:
 

81usaf92

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The main point of the lawsuit is just what you say above - SAFETY. I'm not claiming SPS doesn't compete well with larger schools (quite the contrary, which is the cause of all the Butt-Hurt), but it's a plain fact that in more than a few of those games we saw SPS kids get hurt at a disproportionate rate as compared to the bigger school opponents' kids. It's just the reality when a school with (basically) the enrollment of a large 3A school must play a school with (basically) the enrollment of a 6A school; kids can get hurt.

FWIW, just this morning I heard an interview on the radio with the principal of a brand new HS in Baldwin County - St. Michael's HS. The school will be all of three years old next year, and it will be the first time they have 3 classes on campus (10th, 11th & 12 grades). They have an ambitious plan to play in a few AHSAA sports, including football. You'd think they'd get a break, being brand new and having a tiny enrollment, but based on the multiplier, and their projected enrollment for next fall, they expect to compete with 3A programs. Gee, wonder how that's going to go????
In fact, they are concerned about admitting "too many" kids and bumping their first time Varsity teams into 4A!! :eek:
If it was about safety for you ... Where were you when teams like Talladega who only dressed 30 at the most were forced to play Homewood who dressed 90 in the early 2000’s til 2014? The difference is Talladega couldn’t stand up to Homewood on either the legal or football fields. St Paul’s can.
 

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