St.Paul's Sues AHSAA over Discriminatory Rule.

81usaf92

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Sorry, but HS sports is not college or professional sports. It is not all about winning. In fact, it really isn't about winning at all. The fact that you don't get this explains why you are so upset about this issue.
So why play high school football? No it’s not ALL about winning, but you can’t tell kids not to go out there and win especially in this state.

I’m not upset. I’m happy that the AHSAA finally has stepped in and made the game playable by getting the teams out of 5A that have no business being there in the first place.
 

B1GTide

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So why play high school football? No it’s not ALL about winning, but you can’t tell kids not to go out there and win especially in this state.
Because you love the sport? And who said that you shouldn't try to win? You just can't place all of the value in winning. And you can't penalize another school for your failure to beat them.
 

81usaf92

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No. You are missing my point. You want to penalize some private schools for having a better overall school system than some public schools. That life and as fair as it gets. They put more time, effort and money in and get better results in return.

Troy and Alabama are in the same league. But one is not like the other. Never will be on a competitive level in football. How many NC do you think Troy will win in Football? Should they give up? Or just work to get better and be the best they can be. They will never win a football championship though at the FBS level.
Again for the billionth time I’m not talking about better system. I’m talking about competition equality. If you can’t see there is one then I’m going to say agree to disagree because you and I aren’t moving forward with this anymore because you are bringing this to a non sports topic instead of a football one. I’m not going to argue with you about the pros and cons and the morality between public and private schools.

I’m not going to talk about a non sports issue with you for the last time.
 

Skeeterpop

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Sorry, but HS sports is not college or professional sports. It is not all about winning. In fact, it really isn't about winning at all. The fact that you don't get this explains why you are so upset about this issue.
Agreed. I went to a small 1A private school. We got our tails kicked in football every year. 40-0 many times in our classification. We just didnt have the numbers in the school to compete in football. But we still played. I had 17 players on my team as a senior. I came out 2 plays my senior year, including offense, defense and special teams.

But you know what. We kicked everyones tails in Basketball and Baseball. Because those were sports we put countless hours into to be better. We won many state championships in 1A and would beat all the 2A and 3A teams champions as well. We were just better in those sports no matter what our classification had been. They hated playing us because they knew they were going to lose to a tiny 1A team. Not one player when i was in HS was on scholarship at our school. But we still put in the time and effort to be better.

Some schools just should not expect to win championships without drastically changing things within the school not its classification.
 

81usaf92

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Because you love the sport? And who said that you shouldn't try to win? You just can't place all of the value in winning. And you can't penalize another school for your failure to beat them.
It’s not penalizing them for winning it’s forcing them to win a title with equal competition.

We aren’t going to agree because I think we just have different experiences with AHSAA. But that’s fine. To each their own.
 

Skeeterpop

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I will bow out with this. You are saying equality in competition.

Should Floyd Mayweather have had to fight at the heavyweight level because he was 50-0 and no one in his weight classification could beat him?

This is basically what you are saying. Some of us disagree with him being punished for being better than everyone in the classification he was put into by the system out ot fairness. They didnt keep moving the goal post and rules on him because he always won.
 

RTR91

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Not sure what you mean...but for public schools their classification is dependent on enrollment and public schools cannot easily deny enrollment to those they are districted to serve. A private school can simply tighten admittance to drop classification. Not saying that schools have done it but truth of the matter is that the private schools control the spigot.
I just don’t think you get what 80% of 5A is right now. If you did you would see that there is a clear advantage that makes the game unplayable. 4-5 A should be mid city to mid county schools not college prep schools. 6 to 7 A should be where serious competition should be played.

So go AHSAA !!!!
Point being the new rule punishes teams for winning, so there should be a rule to demote teams for losing.

Are we trying to turn high school football into English soccer leagues?


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rgw

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I just think there is just an overwhelming competitive advantage to being private and attempting to run a winning football program. It would be akin to letting teams with FBS scholarship allotment compete against FCS scholarship allotment teams for championships. It wouldn't be uncompetitive to let teams have 20 more scholarship caliber athletes yet still compete for the same championship. The NFL v. FBS competing for the same championship is not quite the same in some respects but it is insofar as the NFL has a superior mechanism for acquiring talent (a full time, high paying job).

Segregating for the sake of competition and equity is something evident in almost every sport. This is why the classification system exists in high school football. My argument is that the difference between private and public is significant enough that they should never compete for the same trophy. Some people here may disagree but I have yet to see a convincing argument to sway my opinion on the matter.
 

B1GTide

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I just think there is just an overwhelming competitive advantage to being private and attempting to run a winning football program. It would be akin to letting teams with FBS scholarship allotment compete against FCS scholarship allotment teams for championships. It wouldn't be uncompetitive to let teams have 20 more scholarship caliber athletes yet still compete for the same championship. The NFL v. FBS competing for the same championship is not quite the same in some respects but it is insofar as the NFL has a superior mechanism for acquiring talent (a full time, high paying job).

Segregating for the sake of competition and equity is something evident in almost every sport. This is why the classification system exists in high school football. My argument is that the difference between private and public is significant enough that they should never compete for the same trophy. Some people here may disagree but I have yet to see a convincing argument to sway my opinion on the matter.
I agree with segregating - creating a different playoff division. A lot of states do this. Alabama seems to be half-in on this.
 

GrayTide

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From what I understand, the AISA schools are a lot different than the privates in the AHSAA.

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In my experience there are two types of private schools in the South (not just in Alabama). Private schools that have been around a long time that excel in academics and athletics; these schools are for the more wealthy who can write a check anytime to support the school and its programs. The other is the private school that was formed in opposition to integration in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but it was to avoid having their children attend schools with blacks. These schools, in most cases, are not funded by the wealthy, but by ordinary people who work for a living and in some cases have to borrow to afford their children's education. That is their choice. These schools are usually small, all white and do not have the resources to compete against any schools other than those that are just like them, as it should be.

The wealthy private schools in order to compete statewide rely on their financial resources (parents) to recruit, in most cases, black athletes, which certainly gives them a competitive advantage over most public schools in their classification. This has been going on now for 50+ years and it should come as no surprise to anyone. I do believe being able to give financial aid in the form of scholarships to attract better athletes is an unfair advantage. Since my children are grown I have no dog in this fight, but it is like everything else in life, it pits the haves vs the have nots.
 

B1GTide

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In my experience there are two types of private schools in the South (not just in Alabama). Private schools that have been around a long time that excel in academics and athletics; these schools are for the more wealthy who can write a check anytime to support the school and its programs. The other is the private school that was formed in opposition to integration in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but it was to avoid having their children attend schools with blacks. These schools, in most cases, are not funded by the wealthy, but by ordinary people who work for a living and in some cases have to borrow to afford their children's education. That is their choice. These schools are usually small, all white and do not have the resources to compete against any schools other than those that are just like them, as it should be.

The wealthy private schools in order to compete statewide rely on their financial resources (parents) to recruit, in most cases, black athletes, which certainly gives them a competitive advantage over most public schools in their classification. This has been going on now for 50+ years and it should come as no surprise to anyone. I do believe being able to give financial aid in the form of scholarships to attract better athletes is an unfair advantage. Since my children are grown I have no dog in this fight, but it is like everything else in life, it pits the haves vs the have nots.
Are you saying that there are still private schools in the South dedicated to segregation?
 

81usaf92

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Are you saying that there are still private schools in the South dedicated to segregation?
It depends on what you classify as segregation.

But back to the football topic. I believe in two leagues or some more checks on private schools for the 7A classification but I’m pretty much in the same boat as rgw. I haven’t seen an argument presented that has changed my opinion on it.
 
Last edited:

RTR91

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I just think there is just an overwhelming competitive advantage to being private and attempting to run a winning football program. It would be akin to letting teams with FBS scholarship allotment compete against FCS scholarship allotment teams for championships. It wouldn't be uncompetitive to let teams have 20 more scholarship caliber athletes yet still compete for the same championship. The NFL v. FBS competing for the same championship is not quite the same in some respects but it is insofar as the NFL has a superior mechanism for acquiring talent (a full time, high paying job).

Segregating for the sake of competition and equity is something evident in almost every sport. This is why the classification system exists in high school football. My argument is that the difference between private and public is significant enough that they should never compete for the same trophy. Some people here may disagree but I have yet to see a convincing argument to sway my opinion on the matter.
But that’s the point of the multiplier - to make them play as though they have more students.

Are you saying that there are still private schools in the South dedicated to segregation?
First, look up OJ Howard, Autauga Academy, and prom date.

Second, they may not be dedicated to segregation but were formed because of it and still operating today.


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Con

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Up here in Tennessee once the big private schools find a guy who can flat out play they start talking to him in middle school and give him a scholarship to come to their school. The players also have to play two sports so the football team gets good and a track team or let’s say baseball does too.

The same private schools compete for the state championship in football every year. It is really bad for their division. They do play other public schools during the season but not in the playoffs in any sport.


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edwd58

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Beginning with the year 2000, Hoover has played for the state championship in all but two years - that's 16 trips to the finals. They've won 11 titles, 5 of the last 6. There's nowhere to send Hoover and you can't make them give up football. Should AHSAA joins forces with other high school athletic associations to create a new classification, something like a southeast state champions league, and force Hoover to play there until they "lose enough" to return to 7A? Ridiculous right. As somewhat of a Prattville Christian follower (my wife taught there after retiring from public school), I don't have much issue with AHSAA's multiplier rule because PCA can indeed recruit (but if they do they aren't doing it well, ha) and pick and choose their student body. However, to make a school move up into a classification for which they do not meet the criteria, just because they win "too much", is equally ridiculous. If that is what AHSAA is truly doing in this case, I would have to side with the school.
 

81usaf92

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Beginning with the year 2000, Hoover has played for the state championship in all but two years - that's 16 trips to the finals. They've won 11 titles, 5 of the last 6. There's nowhere to send Hoover and you can't make them give up football. Should AHSAA joins forces with other high school athletic associations to create a new classification, something like a southeast state champions league, and force Hoover to play there until they "lose enough" to return to 7A? Ridiculous right. As somewhat of a Prattville Christian follower (my wife taught there after retiring from public school), I don't have much issue with AHSAA's multiplier rule because PCA can indeed recruit (but if they do they aren't doing it well, ha) and pick and choose their student body. However, to make a school move up into a classification for which they do not meet the criteria, just because they win "too much", is equally ridiculous. If that is what AHSAA is truly doing in this case, I would have to side with the school.
Before we go down the “ Look at Hoover” argument keep in mind we are talking about being fair in terms of competition. Any 7A can match Hoover’s numbers and spend enough to keep pace because they are huge schools with huge booster clubs. We are talking about a Mobile private school that has almost an unlimited amount of talent that they can recruit going against county and small city schools that may have 1 player make it to D2 ball. St Paul’s has proved that they are more than capable of competing and mostly beating the bigger schools in Mobile so the 6A classification is the correct call.

I just don’t believe the Hoover and St Paul’s comparison is the same.
 

RTR91

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Before we go down the “ Look at Hoover” argument keep in mind we are talking about being fair in terms of competition. Any 7A can match Hoover’s numbers and spend enough to keep pace because they are huge schools with huge booster clubs. We are talking about a Mobile private school that has almost an unlimited amount of talent that they can recruit going against county and small city schools that may have 1 player make it to D2 ball. St Paul’s has proved that they are more than capable of competing and mostly beating the bigger schools in Mobile so the 6A classification is the correct call.

I just don’t believe the Hoover and St Paul’s comparison is the same.
This is just not true. The Montgomery schools don’t have anything close the budget or booster support to compete with Hoover.

Is this rule solely because St. Paul’s wins? No other team is being mentioned.

And again, the multiplier already puts them against teams with more players. At some point, depth and overall roster numbers have to mean something.


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edwd58

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Before we go down the “ Look at Hoover” argument keep in mind we are talking about being fair in terms of competition. Any 7A can match Hoover’s numbers and spend enough to keep pace because they are huge schools with huge booster clubs. We are talking about a Mobile private school that has almost an unlimited amount of talent that they can recruit going against county and small city schools that may have 1 player make it to D2 ball. St Paul’s has proved that they are more than capable of competing and mostly beating the bigger schools in Mobile so the 6A classification is the correct call.
I just don’t believe the Hoover and St Paul’s comparison is the same.
There isn't a 7A school in the Montgomery area, including Prattville, that can compete with Hoover in terms of resources or numbers. If St. Paul's doesn't meet the criteria for being a 6A school, like every other school in the classification - given the multiplier, then it is the wrong decision. The decision shouldn't be based upon how good they are or how often they win. Sounds like St. Paul's has just gotten under your skin by perhaps defeating your team on a somewhat regular basis? South Alabama will just have to deal with St. Paul's like we have to deal with Hoover; a shrug of the shoulders and say "that's just Hoover." Our only recourse is to work harder to get better and hope they eventually come back to the pack. We don't like it, or enjoy it, but we're not asking the AHSAA for relief from it.
 

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