We were warned 30 years ago by NASA that global warming was ‘hitting us hard'

crimsonaudio · Jun 21, 2018

92tide said:
the only thing i am defending is science.

And as far as I can tell, no on e in this thread is arguing against climate change.

All I'm saying is that both parties have had the chance to address this, and precious little has been done.

RollTide_HTTR · Jun 21, 2018

I think its VERY clear that Republicans are the major obstacle towards substantial reform in this area that can make an impact. They have mocked, chided, and flat out ignored any alarm that has sounded. Further, many Republicans have gone above and beyond in trying to undermine any progress made.

However, I do wish the Democrats made this a higher priority and I do think they could do a good bit more than they have.

AlexanderFan · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
To be fair, we've had 30 years, 16 of which were under Presidents with a D beside their name who both had two yeas of congressional control, yet little has been done. Yes, most of those still denying climate change are on the right, but the time to act was long ago and neither party has done much to actually address the issue.

And here they were thinking you were going to jump in on the bash wagon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

92tide · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
And as far as I can tell, no on e in this thread is arguing against climate change.

All I'm saying is that both parties have had the chance to address this, and precious little has been done.

but half of the country is. and that half controls all three branches of the federal government and a lot of the state governments.

there is one of the two parties that doesn't even acknowledge this is happening, or if they do weakly acknowledge it, don't think anything should be done. maybe that's where we should start.

92tide · Jun 21, 2018

RollTide_HTTR said:
I think its VERY clear that Republicans are the major obstacle towards substantial reform in this area that can make an impact. They have mocked, chided, and flat out ignored any alarm that has sounded. Further, many Republicans have gone above and beyond in trying to undermine any progress made.

However, I do wish the Democrats made this a higher priority and I do think they could do a good bit more than they have.

al gore is fat, therefore climate change is a scam

as far as i can remember, climate change has been a major issue for most democrats (and the national party) for quite a while.

CharminTide · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
And of course you guys cannot get past the arguing about which team is better, ignoring that fact that the few positives Obama accomplished were easily undone because he wasn't able to take advantage of democratic control of congress. They could have enacted massive changes in law and policy but wasted their political revenue on other things.

I'm only comparing the two to point our that neither has accomplished much. Yes the Dems actually tried to do something, and yes the repubs are actively trying to remove all of that progress. But that doesn't mean the Dems actually accomplished what they could have, what they should have, based on what they claim to believe.

Pretending otherwise is just defending your team while ignoring the obvious. Our leaders from both sides have failed us for more than three decades. Just drop the 'but the other team is worse' mentality for once.

I'm not really sure what the point of this argument is. Yes, Obama spent most of his political capital on universal healthcare, and he never had a congressional majority after that. He did what he could with the cards he was dealt toward the end of his term, but it was ultimately the GOP-led Congress that blocked his every movement on this issue. You seem to be bending backwards to try and make an equivalence, but I don't see the point.

crimsonaudio · Jun 21, 2018

CharminTide said:
I'm not really sure what the point of this argument is. Yes, Obama spent most of his political capital on universal healthcare, and he never had a congressional majority after that. He did what he could with the cards he was dealt toward the end of his term, but it was ultimately the GOP-led Congress that blocked his every movement on this issue. You seem to be bending backwards to try and make an equivalence, but I don't see the point.

I'm not trying to make any equivalence - other than neither party has done much to fix this. I've not equated them other than that, and despite the dishes to point fingers, the reality is that all of our elected leaders shoulder some of the blame for this. I primarily blame the right, but, if we're being honest, climate change is a far bigger issue than universal healthcare - but it's not as likely to get one re-elected.

Some have been worse than others - absolutely - but they've all let us down wrt substantially addressing climate change.

If that explanation is somehow equating the two in your mind, then I have no idea what to tell you.

92tide · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
I'm not trying to make any equivalence - other than neither party has done much to fix this. I've not equated them other than that, and despite the dishes to point fingers, the reality is that all of our elected leaders shoulder some of the blame for this. I primarily blame the right, but, if we're being honest, climate change is a far bigger issue than universal healthcare - but it's not as likely to get one re-elected.

Some have been worse than others - absolutely - but they've all let us down wrt substantially addressing climate change.

If that explanation is somehow equating the two in your mind, then I have no idea what to tell you.

i would suggest voting for people who will work on addressing the problem.

Bamabuzzard · Jun 21, 2018

CharminTide said:
Well, we had limits on industrial pollution and were just fine. The GOP removed those, and I didn't see a dramatic decrease in the price of... well, anything. We also had impressive federal investment in green energy research and had developed the most promising renewables industry in the world, until Trump tried to cut these (fortunately private investment persists). We also had tax subsidies for electric vehicles, and I see them on the road everyday,

I'm not saying that these steps are sufficient to achieve what we need, but I am trying to illustrate that changes can be made and investment can be incentivized in ways that don't upend civilization.

And I guess this is where I normally check out of these type conversations. Is there no way to measure if changes are actually working or going to work? Or is the time frame between changes implemented and when we can reasonably expect to see changes generations long? I have zero problem with implementing solutions to a problem. However, I'm one who doesn't like implementing suggested solutions and no one in the room really has any idea if the solutions are going to materially work or not.

Chukker Veteran · Jun 21, 2018

My understanding is now Trump is trying to subsidize the coal industry by requiring government entities to buy their power from coal sources. This, despite alternative sources being less expensive.

But, Obama should have done better at stopping stuff like this..

Chukker Veteran · Jun 21, 2018

Bamabuzzard said:
And I guess this is where I normally check out of these type conversations. Is there no way to measure if changes are actually working or going to work? Or is the time frame between changes implemented and when we can reasonably expect to see changes generations long? I have zero problem with implementing solutions to a problem. However, I'm one who doesn't like implementing suggested solutions and no one in the room really has any idea if the solutions are going to materially work or not.

What some miss, in my opinion, is that common sense ways to address the problem are not inherently bad or even more expensive. If you can generate electricity from solar power or burning coal, and solar costs less...

CharminTide · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
I'm not trying to make any equivalence - other than neither party has done much to fix this. I've not equated them other than that, and despite the dishes to point fingers, the reality is that all of our elected leaders shoulder some of the blame for this. I primarily blame the right, but, if we're being honest, climate change is a far bigger issue than universal healthcare - but it's not as likely to get one re-elected.

Some have been worse than others - absolutely - but they've all let us down wrt substantially addressing climate change.

If that explanation is somehow equating the two in your mind, then I have no idea what to tell you.

Fair enough, I think we're basically in agreement.

crimsonaudio · Jun 21, 2018

CharminTide said:
Fair enough, I think we're basically in agreement.

We are, I just still blame Obama for not doing more when he had the chance. I blame Trump FAR more as he's not only not trying to help, he's actively working to undo anything Obama did, just because he did it.

bama_wayne1 · Jun 21, 2018

I would like to see us outlaw air conditioning. We didn't have it in the fields when I was growing up and I made it fine. That would cut a lot of carbon.

crimsonaudio · Jun 21, 2018

Chukker Veteran said:
But, Obama should have done better at stopping stuff like this..

If that's what you're getting from my posts, you're projecting.

CharminTide · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
We are, I just still blame Obama for not doing more when he had the chance. I blame Trump FAR more as he's not only not trying to help, he's actively working to undo anything Obama did, just because he did it.

Well, 92 is right. If climate change is important to someone, they need to vote for representatives who want to do something about it. At the moment, nearly all those people come from one of the major parties.

Relevant news breaking:

AP: Trump scraps Obama policy on protecting oceans, Great Lakes

Chukker Veteran · Jun 21, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
We are, I just still blame Obama for not doing more when he had the chance. I blame Trump FAR more as he's not only not trying to help, he's actively working to undo anything Obama did, just because he did it.

I blame Obama for not pardoning Siegelman and not prosecuting Cheney & Bush, but we can't have everything.

rjtide · Jun 21, 2018

focusing on the individual level, what are we as individuals who are posting our thoughts on this thread doing to help the environment? how have we, as individuals in our daily lives, changed our habits to help Mother Earth? i am of the opinion that making individual changes will help the environment out much more than worrying about enacting macro gov't policies....since in this day and age its likely to alienate roughly 1/2 of the populace to such new policy(ies). as for me, driving slower, driving an electric vehicle, being vegetarian, planting trees in my yard, using energy efficient lighting in my house, installing smart thermometers in my house are my ways of doing what i need to do to make a small incremental positive change to my part of the world.

Bamabuzzard · Jun 21, 2018

rjtide said:
focusing on the individual level, what are we as individuals who are posting our thoughts on this thread doing to help the environment? how have we, as individuals in our daily lives, changed our habits to help Mother Earth? i am of the opinion that making individual changes will help the environment out much more than worrying about enacting macro gov't policies....since in this day and age its likely to alienate roughly 1/2 of the populace to such new policy(ies). as for me, driving slower, driving an electric vehicle, being vegetarian, planting trees in my yard, using energy efficient lighting in my house, installing smart thermometers in my house are my ways of doing what i need to do to make a small incremental positive change to my part of the world.

This whole thing can blow up before I become a vegetarian. :smile:

RTR91 · Jun 21, 2018

rjtide said:
focusing on the individual level, what are we as individuals who are posting our thoughts on this thread doing to help the environment? how have we, as individuals in our daily lives, changed our habits to help Mother Earth? i am of the opinion that making individual changes will help the environment out much more than worrying about enacting macro gov't policies....since in this day and age its likely to alienate roughly 1/2 of the populace to such new policy(ies). as for me, driving slower, driving an electric vehicle, being vegetarian, planting trees in my yard, using energy efficient lighting in my house, installing smart thermometers in my house are my ways of doing what i need to do to make a small incremental positive change to my part of the world.

We were warned 30 years ago by NASA that global warming was ‘hitting us hard'

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