Link: Maxine Waters, Democrats Donald Trump

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Bazza

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A large part of what's wrong with this country is that we've forgotten how to disagree as gentlemen and it's a real chore with the guy at the top...
I agree that some people do not know how to remain civil in their disagreements, whether influenced by President Trump or not.

But at 64 years old, my behaviour is more of a reflection of my upbringing by my parents.

And I've always felt the same true for others.

Never in my life, for example have I ever advocated dropping a friendship or relationship because of someone else's political beliefs.

I'm also of the opinion that since there are others who tend to blow up when discussing politics and can't control their emotions, sometimes it's best for all involved not to even respond or initiate any conversation.

I think we have a good mix here of pro and anti Trump folks so hopefully everyone will let each other have their say going forward without snarky responses so we can continue to demonstrate that we were all raised properly.
 

crimsonaudio

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A large part of what's wrong with this country is that we've forgotten how to disagree as gentlemen and it's a real chore with the guy at the top...
Yah, and that applies to people who support him and those who do not. It's crazy that people think attacking each other is going to change ANYONE'S mind.
 

Bazza

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Yah, and that applies to people who support him and those who do not. It's crazy that people think attacking each other is going to change ANYONE'S mind.
That's the crazy part I've never understood....for me it's always been 'us' against 'the man'. And 'the man' doesn't post here last time I checked! Big picture.....:wink:
 

92tide

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mlk's words seem to be somewhat applicable these days.
letter from the birmingham jail said:
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
 

chanson78

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This is a Twitter thread from someone who grew up in the Philippines. I’d include the link to the tweet but it has some language I’ve cleaned up. You can search for her on Twitter at @RinChupeco

I haven’t really chimed in on this issue but I believe this sums up my feelings on the matter.

Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one.

Ferdinand Marcos' greatest trick was convincing people all protesters were communist animals, so when they went missing, few cared. Even after bodies were discovered.
These white people & journalists talking about being civil? These were the rich people, the Fil-Chinese, the mestizos in the Philippines who knew they won't be affected by many of Marcos' policies, and therefore could ignore them even as the killings started.
Marcos was also adept at convincing regular Filipinos that "as long as you don't commit crimes I won't come for you. I'm only getting rid of the 'filth'." He lied, of course. He jailed his most vocal opponents, people whose businesses he wanted to confiscate for his use.
But Filipinos have always been susceptible to strongman personality cults, just like your Republicans.

(Yeah don't @ me on this one, Repubs still singing Reagan's praises despite the fact he was FRIENDS with Marcos and helped him retain power, making it 1000x worse for us.)
White people, journalists who insist on civility- you seem to think civility is a common ground you share with opponents like Trump et al. Here's a clue - whenever you offer these <expletives> middle ground, they will invade that space & then claim you never gave them ground at all.
Marcos kept pushing. First it was all protesters were communists. All student protesters. Then it was the free press. Then it was the people with businesses he coveted. And then it was anyone who looked at Imelda Marcos or his daughter, Imee, wrong. Arrested, raped, murdered.
And every step of the way there were the same kind of <expletives> here twittering on about how people should be civil, SURELY Marcos wouldn't go that far, the economy is flourishing surely it can't be THAT bad.

"It didn't happen to ME, so it must not be bad." up till Martial Law.
White people asking for performative civility do the same thing they did, for the same reason - they're afraid. You've never been raised to fear discrimination or prejudice against a system that has always been built in your favor for centuries.
Your argument for civility is a terrified lashing out against an uncertain future that your ancestors / fellow white people have subjected people of color to for centuries. It's built in POC culture to learn how to cope with this. You've had none, because you've never needed to.
Because regardless of whether you want it or not, status quo benefits white people best. In any upheaval, white people have the least casualties. That makes them the last demographic wanting to rock the boat, even if the boat is full of Nazis steering it straight into Auschwitz.
Because you know Auschwitz isn't going to be for you. It's gonna be Auschwitz for a lot of people in that same boat you're on, but you know that's not for you. And that's why you can afford to be compliant.
And here's the kicker: YOU KNOW THEY'RE NOT CIVIL. That's why it's the liberals you keep appealing to for decorum and politeness. You know you're not going to get most Trumpsters on board anything amounting to basic decency.
So you shift the goalposts, and you enable the gaslighting, even if inadvertently. "Maybe if YOU hadn't been so rude they wouldn't have done that."

<expletive>. You KNOW they'll do it anyway because again, your god<expletive> status quo.
People invested in putting kids in cages don't want your civility. They don't want you to extend them the same courtesy they never had - and never wanted - from you. What they want is for you to retreat.
And every ground you grudgingly give, hoping that they'll construe that as some good faith on your part, is only an incentive for them to push harder until you have no ground left.

Then they're going to tell you they've owned the land all along.
"So much for the tolerant left." This is why they say this all the <expletive> time. This is the bait they expect you to fall for. Your required "tolerance" for the things they do, even as they do the exact opposite to you.
The first requirement when approaching any discussion with civility is that both sides must come to the table with it. The side that advocates putting kids in cages and are now thinking of stripping citizenship from legal green card holders, never had that to begin with.
Now: if you are REALLY invested in still keeping civil after this, there are countless unaffiliated Red Hen places in the US (+one in Canada) being egged, getting death threats, etc.

Try discussing "civility" with those people this time, & see how well that works out for you.
 

CajunCrimson

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This is a Twitter thread from someone who grew up in the Philippines. I’d include the link to the tweet but it has some language I’ve cleaned up. You can search for her on Twitter at @RinChupeco

I haven’t really chimed in on this issue but I believe this sums up my feelings on the matter.
If you think that any of this is possible or likely -- then you better hope that you are able to keep your guns.....you might need them.
 

CajunCrimson

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This is a Twitter thread from someone who grew up in the Philippines. I’d include the link to the tweet but it has some language I’ve cleaned up. You can search for her on Twitter at @RinChupeco

I haven’t really chimed in on this issue but I believe this sums up my feelings on the matter.
The first requirement when approaching any discussion with civility is that both sides must come to the table with it. The side that advocates putting kids in cages and are now thinking of stripping citizenship from legal green card holders, never had that to begin with.
Now: if you are REALLY invested in still keeping civil after this, there are countless unaffiliated Red Hen places in the US (+one in Canada) being egged, getting death threats, etc.
Do Green Card Holders currently have Citizenship?

Here's the thing about the "Red Hen" -- the owners there had every right to do what they did. And they did it. They are also responsible for having to deal with the response to their actions. If their place gets vandalized - then arrest the vandals. If they are getting death threats, arrest those who threatened them. Please hold those accountable for breaking the law. Make the penalties extreme - with my blessing.
 
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RollTARDIS

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Trump’s brand of insult politics and the normalization of extreme viewpoints and policies has taken over the GOP (and I’m sure the only response to this truth by defenders of idiocy will be to point the finger at the other side). Some people are going to react like this. Given way the president acts, it is extremely hard to say that it isn’t justified. Public shaming beats violence any day.
 

92tide

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ny times op-ed

Faced with the unceasing cruelty and degradation of the Trump presidency, liberals have not taken to marching around in public with assault weapons and threatening civil war. I know of no left-wing publication that has followed the example of the right-wing Federalist and run quasi-pornographic fantasies about murdering political enemies. (“Close your eyes and imagine holding someone’s scalp in your hands,” began a recent Federalist article.) Unlike Trump, no Democratic politician I’m aware of has urged his or her followers to beat up opposing demonstrators.

Instead, some progressive celebrities have said some bad words, and some people have treated administration officials with the sort of public opprobrium due members of any other white nationalist organization. Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable.

Sometimes, their strategies may be poorly conceived. But there’s an abusive sort of victim-blaming in demanding that progressives single-handedly uphold civility, lest the right become even more uncivil in response. As long as our rulers wage war on cosmopolitan culture, they shouldn’t feel entitled to its fruits. If they don’t want to hear from the angry citizens they’re supposed to serve, let them eat at Trump Grill.
 

Its On A Slab

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This is a Twitter thread from someone who grew up in the Philippines. I’d include the link to the tweet but it has some language I’ve cleaned up. You can search for her on Twitter at @RinChupeco

I haven’t really chimed in on this issue but I believe this sums up my feelings on the matter.
A scary scenario, no doubt. Can it happen here? Don't be so keen to discount it. We are a nation of laws, but we are seeing an assault upon the basic principles that our nation was founded upon. We have a court system that can be a bulwark against egregious attacks, but idiots and sycophants are being appointed to replace retiring judges.

I was in Buenos Aires over the holidays, and toured the ESMA memorial to the Desaparecidos and The Dirty War. The junta acted just like Marcos, demonizing anyone that dared challenged their authority, kidnapping and disappearing even school kids. Arresting judges, and labor leaders.
 

GrayTide

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A scary scenario, no doubt. Can it happen here? Don't be so keen to discount it. We are a nation of laws, but we are seeing an assault upon the basic principles that our nation was founded upon. We have a court system that can be a bulwark against egregious attacks, but idiots and sycophants are being appointed to replace retiring judges.

I was in Buenos Aires over the holidays, and toured the ESMA memorial to the Desaparecidos and The Dirty War. The junta acted just like Marcos, demonizing anyone that dared challenged their authority, kidnapping and disappearing even school kids. Arresting judges, and labor leaders.
Can it happen here? I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it has already started. Interring immigrants, abolishing due process, unilaterally imposing economic sanctions on our allies, trying to stamp out the freedom of the press, and lying to the American people about anything that reflects poorly on him. This is not going to end well for the American people.
 
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