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  1. #66
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I hope Alabama doesn't become too restrictive when it comes time for a coaching search. The worst thing you can do is narrow things down to someone on Saban's coaching tree or what not. Furthermore, I think it needs to become more about the best candidate and less about anyone's favorite.

    If you look at the best hire Alabama had made in my lifetime, it was Nick Saban, someone with no ties at all to Alabama, or to any of the great Alabama coaches. Shula was a horrible hire, with the only justification being he was connected to Alabama and Don Shula, neither connection proving to have any real value. Alabama's biggest mistake might have been passing on Bowden, who had virtually no ties to the University of Alabama or coaches associated with Alabama, but would have been a phenomenal hire.

    So the main thing here is just don't overthink it, and don't get cute. Look around, see who the best candidate is and go after him.
    It's not that Bowden didn't have connections. He played there as QB as a freshman, which I had forgotten. Never coached there, though. But he would have loved to be the Coach at Bama. Basically, we blew it with the way it was handled.

    And, Dabo, fits the bill too, obviously.

    I would have loved to have seen the passion CBB could have brought and what I think Dabo would bring.

    Loving Alabama isn't a prerequisite, but if a coach is very qualifed and loves Bama, it would be fun to watch. Mike Dubose and Mike Price loved Bama, but there weren't qualifed.
    Last edited by BamaMoon; July 6th, 2018 at 11:01 AM.

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  3. #67
    BamaNation All-SEC TomFromBama's Avatar
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    I agree we can't see who might become a great coach, but the methodology you seem to be embracing is to find a young, up and coming coach who's had some limited success somewhere else.
    Actually NO - I did not say that AT ALL. All I said was, (assuming the hire is still 5+ years in the future) we can not POSSIBLY PREDICT who will be a good choice FIVE YEARS FROM NOW. And to demonstrate that reality - I used past "Good" HC hires, and showed that NONE of those coaches looked particularly appealing, FIVE YEARS PRIOR to the time they were hired at those jobs.

    The PRIME example of this might be Urban Meyer - an Undistinguished WR coach on a mediocre Notre Dame team FIVE years before UF hired him. And yet, he went on to do "ok" at UF, despite NOT winning ANY NC's prior to taking the Florida job........

    For that matter, how many NC's or B1G titles had Nick Saban won before LSU hired him? I still contend that he was a "Good Hire" for LSu in 2000!


    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    The problem with this is kinda repeats what we did after Coach Bryant and Coach Stallings. And Coach Stallings actually fits the characteristics too. While he won a NC, there was really no evidence he could. So taking younger, promising looking coaches is just too risky because most guys like that aren't championship caliber coaches, as the records usually indicate after 5 or 10 years.
    Uh... No. Where did you get that idea??? I don't know how "up and coming" Ray Perkins was? He was an established NFL HC (4 seasons at the NY Giants) when he was hired by UA in 1983. The equivalent would be hiring someone like Adam Gase or Jay Gruden IF either of them had also been an All-American player at Alabama.

    Mike DuBose, sadly, was not "Up and Coming" - Prior to 1996 he had been a Career position coach and no one IN the game thought he was going anywhere (and they were right). If we had not made him HC in 1997 and not kept him as DC, he would have taken a position coach job somewhere else. Because, frankly, he was mostly a bust in his one season as our DC. He got the HC job because delusional fans wanted him, 'cause he played for da bar!!!

    Coach Stallings was hired for a number of reasons, including his character, and success in the NFL at a franchise that was KNOWN in those days for not providing sufficient talent, as well as his great success as an assistant to Bryant then to Landry at the Cowboys. Like Perkins, Stallings was an established NFL Head Coach (4 seasons at the Cardinals) at the time he was hired. And he was HARDLY a "Younger" coach when he was hired!!!!! (age 55 in 1990).


    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    Right now, the only coach that might fit into this "gambling philosophy" is Lincoln Riley and as bad as I hate to say it Gus Malzhan. And even acknowleging they've gotten their teams deep into the NC hunt, neither have won it.
    But as noted above, I AM NOT SUGGESTING UA "GAMBLE" ON AN UNPROVEN COACH. Lots of things happen in Five years. There will be coaches who ARE "proven" five years from now, who are NOT "proven" today.


    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    So, I go back to the earlier point, we should make Dabo turn it down because he's proven he can build, maintain and actually win a NC and play for multiple others.

    If he turns it down, we start with other very experienced coaches who have shown the capability of long-term success with conference championships and as many playoff appearences as possible.

    If we strike out there, then looking for a guy who's an up and coming guy may have to be resorted to then. In that case, I'd look to someone who's a defensive specialist like Jeremy Pruit who hopefully has put together a few successful years of winning and hiring good offensive coaches.
    I don't disagree, and I think UA Will call Dabo when that day comes. I'm just not a fan of his style of football OR his style of running a team - and lets be honest, if not for the FLUKE of our bad QB situation in 2016, he'd be 0-3 against Saban at this point, and two of the games would not have been particularly close.

    And beyond that, I think it's debatable whether he would take the job at that point. My sense is that's he probably would not. But that's just my opinion - like most everything I post here.

    NO "Flames" or disrespect intended!
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  4. #68
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    This just leaves me speechless. I mean - words fail me.

    The UNDISPUTED BEST COACH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME, if not unanimously held so today, then certainly by the time he retires no one anywhere will be able to deny it. But he's too stupid to pick his successor???? To Biased to pick the best choice regardless of pedigree?

    Seems like he's got a pretty good record of hiring assistants and coordinators? How many of the coaches he's hired have left UA without a NC ring? 5 or 6 maybe?, out of what? 15-20 that have worked on our staffs the past 10+ years????
    I'm on record many many times as forcefully as anyone on this board that CNS is the greatest of all time. I said it several years ago and am only more convinced as time goes by. In fact, I said that he would likely become that or something like that after the 2007 season.

    Having said that, being a HC and hiring a HC are two different skill sets. As others have noted, and it's one thing I was thinking about as I posted, Saban recommended Houston Nutt as his successor at LSU. While I think Nutt is much better than most here give him credit for, though a lazy recruiter, he's not the choice most would make. He thought Derek Dooley would be a good HC and others who have not panned out. Part of that is supporting his guys, but part of that is that is that it is not an area of expertise where he excels. Again, it is two different skill sets, just like playing and coaching, like asst coach and coordinator, just like coordinator and HC. AD and HC are very different.

    Btw, I think CNS understands this fully. He always fully and genuinely acknowledges the chain of command. And I don't think it is only out of respect for the COC but because he understands the difference in the functions and skills of the parts of the COC. I think he will be very respectful of the process and whatever decision is made. Who knows, he can always falter and understandably feel a sense of entitlement, but it would be out of character.

    No, the AD, with input from all appropriate sources, should make the call. Not CNS, not the boosters, BOT, Pres, distinguished alumni and most of all not the fans - the AD. He supposedly has the skill, his neck is definitely the one on the line and he is the one to whom the HC reports.
    - Coach Bryant AD wanted Gene Stallings, Joab Thomas wanted Ray Perkins
    - ?AD? wanted ??, Joab Thomas wanted Bill Curry (Bowden would have come)
    - Hootie Ingram wanted Gene Stalllings
    - even the miserable AD Bockrath wanted Frank Beamer, the fanbase wanted Mike DuBose
    - AD Mal Moore wanted DF (IMO a good choice, he was a great offensive coach for avg talent)
    - AD Mal Moore wanted Mike Price (again a good choice for avg talent and a good QB)
    - AD Mal Moore wanted Richard Williamson, ?? wanted Mike Shula
    - skittish boosters and others paniced and turned to Rodriquez, AD Mal Moore wanted to wait for Nick Saban.

  5. #69
    BamaNation All-SEC TomFromBama's Avatar
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I hope Alabama doesn't become too restrictive when it comes time for a coaching search. The worst thing you can do is narrow things down to someone on Saban's coaching tree or what not. Furthermore, I think it needs to become more about the best candidate and less about anyone's favorite.

    If you look at the best hire Alabama had made in my lifetime, it was Nick Saban, someone with no ties at all to Alabama, or to any of the great Alabama coaches. Shula was a horrible hire, with the only justification being he was connected to Alabama and Don Shula, neither connection proving to have any real value. Alabama's biggest mistake might have been passing on Bowden, who had virtually no ties to the University of Alabama or coaches associated with Alabama, but would have been a phenomenal hire.

    So the main thing here is just don't overthink it, and don't get cute. Look around, see who the best candidate is and go after him.
    Well, I agree with the first sentence - there's no reason to demand ties to Saban or to Alabama - but let's be HONEST, shall we?

    What's the MAIN reason everyone here is beating the drum for Yaba-Dabo?

    Wait for it..........

    'Cause he played for Alabama.


    FWIW, I agree that it was a HUGE Mistake to snub Bobby Bowden, (Thanks to Joab Thomas ) but as others have noted, Bowden had Deep and lifelong ties to UA, having grown up in Birmingham, been a lifelong fan, played for Bryant as a Freshman, and remained on good terms with Coach Bryant the rest of Bryant's life.


    But Mike Shula was a "Horrible Hire"???
    Really?

    Since Coach Bryant retired, we've hired THREE coaches who have unceremoniously QUIT on us.
    Perk flipped us the bird and walked away from a team that might have contended for a National Title.
    curry PIMPED US OUT on TV after GUTTING every aspect of our program and leaving the cupboard almost bare.
    Dumbose handed us TWO LOSING SEASONS despite having very Talented teams, made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his secretary scandal, and HUNG us with the (Second) Worst NZAA Penalty in the HISTORY of CFB up to that time.
    Fraudchionne threw the 2002 aubarn game before cutting and running in the dead of night and popping up at Collie Station.
    Then Mike Price Again made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his drunken Sex Romp - Remember all the jokes about "Destiny" and "Its ROLLING BABY"???

    But against THAT backdrop, yea, Mike Shula was OBVIOUSLY a "Horrible" hire....... SMDH......


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  6. #70
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Dabo

    Nothing more needs to be said.

  7. #71
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Actually NO - I did not say that AT ALL. All I said was, (assuming the hire is still 5+ years in the future) we can not POSSIBLY PREDICT who will be a good choice FIVE YEARS FROM NOW. And to demonstrate that reality - I used past "Good" HC hires, and showed that NONE of those coaches looked particularly appealing, FIVE YEARS PRIOR to the time they were hired at those jobs.

    The PRIME example of this might be Urban Meyer - an Undistinguished WR coach on a mediocre Notre Dame team FIVE years before UF hired him. And yet, he went on to do "ok" at UF, despite NOT winning ANY NC's prior to taking the Florida job........

    For that matter, how many NC's or B1G titles had Nick Saban won before LSU hired him? I still contend that he was a "Good Hire" for LSu in 2000!




    Uh... No. Where did you get that idea??? I don't know how "up and coming" Ray Perkins was? He was an established NFL HC (4 seasons at the NY Giants) when he was hired by UA in 1983. The equivalent would be hiring someone like Adam Gase or Jay Gruden IF either of them had also been an All-American player at Alabama.

    Mike DuBose, sadly, was not "Up and Coming" - Prior to 1996 he had been a Career position coach and no one IN the game thought he was going anywhere (and they were right). If we had not made him HC in 1997 and not kept him as DC, he would have taken a position coach job somewhere else. Because, frankly, he was mostly a bust in his one season as our DC. He got the HC job because delusional fans wanted him, 'cause he played for da bar!!!

    Coach Stallings was hired for a number of reasons, including his character, and success in the NFL at a franchise that was KNOWN in those days for not providing sufficient talent, as well as his great success as an assistant to Bryant then to Landry at the Cowboys. Like Perkins, Stallings was an established NFL Head Coach (4 seasons at the Cardinals) at the time he was hired. And he was HARDLY a "Younger" coach when he was hired!!!!! (age 55 in 1990).




    But as noted above, I AM NOT SUGGESTING UA "GAMBLE" ON AN UNPROVEN COACH. Lots of things happen in Five years. There will be coaches who ARE "proven" five years from now, who are NOT "proven" today.




    I don't disagree, and I think UA Will call Dabo when that day comes. I'm just not a fan of his style of football OR his style of running a team - and lets be honest, if not for the FLUKE of our bad QB situation in 2016, he'd be 0-3 against Saban at this point, and two of the games would not have been particularly close.

    And beyond that, I think it's debatable whether he would take the job at that point. My sense is that's he probably would not. But that's just my opinion - like most everything I post here.

    NO "Flames" or disrespect intended!
    I guess I'm confused to what you are saying. UF didn't know Myer would be a championship coach, but it payed off, but they basically got lucky. LSU didn't know CNS would win a NC.

    I don't think we should go that route. Now if your saying a guy might emerge in 5 years coming from obscurity to being a NC coach, then that's possible, but my point is I don't see how a guy is going from obscurity to NC level coach in the current state of college football.

    There's a pretty good bet we could name about 5 or 6 coaches who will play for championships in the next 5 years and other than Kirby or Riley, it's probably guys we already know who are top level coaches. And even today, the verdict is still out on Kirby and Riley.
    Last edited by BamaMoon; July 6th, 2018 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #72
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor View Post
    Dabo

    Nothing more needs to be said.
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  9. #73
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    It wouldn't hurt my feelings if he wasn't even on the list. There is just something that is not right about him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor View Post
    Dabo

    Nothing more needs to be said.

  10. #74
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post

    What's the MAIN reason everyone here is beating the drum for Yaba-Dabo?

    Wait for it..........

    'Cause he played for Alabama.
    You forgot the first half of that sentence: "Because he appears to be the best up and coming college coach, he's already won a national title at Clemson and nearly won a second, and (what you wrote)......

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    But Mike Shula was a "Horrible Hire"???
    Really?
    Yes, he was.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Since Coach Bryant retired, we've hired THREE coaches who have unceremoniously QUIT on us.
    Perk flipped us the bird and walked away from a team that might have contended for a National Title.
    Culverhouse hired him to get him out of the way, and that 1986 team was senior heavy and lost its best chance at the title that year.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    curry PIMPED US OUT on TV after GUTTING every aspect of our program and leaving the cupboard almost bare.
    Curry recruited about 1/2 the national championship winning team for us and a chunk of it at Georgia Tech when they won one as well.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Dumbose handed us TWO LOSING SEASONS despite having very Talented teams, made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his secretary scandal, and HUNG us with the (Second) Worst NZAA Penalty in the HISTORY of CFB up to that time.
    I'd like to argue with this point, but I really can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Fraudchionne threw the 2002 aubarn game before cutting and running in the dead of night and popping up at Collie Station.
    "Threw the game" is rather dramatic. Failed to get ready because his head was elsewhere is a fair assessment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Then Mike Price Again made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his drunken Sex Romp - Remember all the jokes about "Destiny" and "Its ROLLING BABY"???
    The 'logic' behind his hiring was someone who could do 'more with less' as he had done at Wazzu. Does any of us know when anyone gets hired who exactly has a zipper problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    But against THAT backdrop, yea, Mike Shula was OBVIOUSLY a "Horrible" hire....... SMDH......

    Saying, "All these other guys were terrible hires," might be true, but it doesn't make Shula any less of a terrible hire. Not when you have other guys available, including Les Miles. I'll grant it eventually turned out right for us, but that's like saying it was okay to knock up your 14-year old girlfriend because you liked the baby the two of you made.
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  11. #75
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Well, I agree with the first sentence - there's no reason to demand ties to Saban or to Alabama - but let's be HONEST, shall we?

    What's the MAIN reason everyone here is beating the drum for Yaba-Dabo?

    Wait for it..........

    'Cause he played for Alabama.


    FWIW, I agree that it was a HUGE Mistake to snub Bobby Bowden, (Thanks to Joab Thomas ) but as others have noted, Bowden had Deep and lifelong ties to UA, having grown up in Birmingham, been a lifelong fan, played for Bryant as a Freshman, and remained on good terms with Coach Bryant the rest of Bryant's life.


    But Mike Shula was a "Horrible Hire"???
    Really?

    Since Coach Bryant retired, we've hired THREE coaches who have unceremoniously QUIT on us.
    Perk flipped us the bird and walked away from a team that might have contended for a National Title.
    curry PIMPED US OUT on TV after GUTTING every aspect of our program and leaving the cupboard almost bare.
    Dumbose handed us TWO LOSING SEASONS despite having very Talented teams, made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his secretary scandal, and HUNG us with the (Second) Worst NZAA Penalty in the HISTORY of CFB up to that time.
    Fraudchionne threw the 2002 aubarn game before cutting and running in the dead of night and popping up at Collie Station.
    Then Mike Price Again made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his drunken Sex Romp - Remember all the jokes about "Destiny" and "Its ROLLING BABY"???

    But against THAT backdrop, yea, Mike Shula was OBVIOUSLY a "Horrible" hire....... SMDH......


    So you would hire Shula over Tom Coughlin?
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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  12. #76
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Well, I agree with the first sentence - there's no reason to demand ties to Saban or to Alabama - but let's be HONEST, shall we?

    What's the MAIN reason everyone here is beating the drum for Yaba-Dabo?

    Wait for it..........

    'Cause he played for Alabama.


    FWIW, I agree that it was a HUGE Mistake to snub Bobby Bowden, (Thanks to Joab Thomas ) but as others have noted, Bowden had Deep and lifelong ties to UA, having grown up in Birmingham, been a lifelong fan, played for Bryant as a Freshman, and remained on good terms with Coach Bryant the rest of Bryant's life.


    But Mike Shula was a "Horrible Hire"???
    Really?

    Since Coach Bryant retired, we've hired THREE coaches who have unceremoniously QUIT on us.
    Perk flipped us the bird and walked away from a team that might have contended for a National Title.
    curry PIMPED US OUT on TV after GUTTING every aspect of our program and leaving the cupboard almost bare.
    Dumbose handed us TWO LOSING SEASONS despite having very Talented teams, made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his secretary scandal, and HUNG us with the (Second) Worst NZAA Penalty in the HISTORY of CFB up to that time.
    Fraudchionne threw the 2002 aubarn game before cutting and running in the dead of night and popping up at Collie Station.
    Then Mike Price Again made us a National LAUGHING STOCK with his drunken Sex Romp - Remember all the jokes about "Destiny" and "Its ROLLING BABY"???

    But against THAT backdrop, yea, Mike Shula was OBVIOUSLY a "Horrible" hire....... SMDH......


    What are you really trying to say???

    No, it's not that Dabo played at Bama that some see him as the top candidate if we are talking about right now or the next couple of years. I would contend that's the least of the reasons to consider him. The main and only reason would be he's the first and only one to beat CNS in a NC game and to get his team back there to try again.

    If people don't like Dabo, that's fine. But nobody can claim the guy hasn't become a great coach...probably top 3 behind CNS and Myer.

    What he's done at Clemson makes him the most qualified (outside of Myer) right now. But just because he bleeds Crimson shouldn't work against him, IMO.

  13. #77
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Names that are probably going to get major traction for bigger jobs is Neal Brown and Chris Klieman.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    So you would hire Shula over Tom Coughlin?
    Coughlin was who I wanted, although some of his subsequent behavior during games in the NFL makes me question whether that would have gone over so well with young guys.
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