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  1. #79
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    I have seen some of you say you don't want anyone you can't say for sure would win an NC. Right now, there are only 4 coaches in football who can say they have(Swinney, Meyer, Fisher, Saban). Unless you want Dabo, you are likely going to at least somewhat roll the dice on someone who has not yet shown they can pull it off (or go with someone who has won on another level, like the NDSU coach).

    As for the whole debate about awful coaches in our history, I don't think it fair to call any of them terrible hires. In retrospect, they ended up being so. But making the hire at the time they did wasn't necessarily a terrible call. I wish we had gone with Beamer back when Coach Stallings left, but we didn't. I didn't want Dubose, but thought maybe he would be ok. He had one good year, at least. I was fully on board with the Fran hire, and that didn't work out. We were in a bad predicament when it came time for the Price/Shula hires. Both worked out badly for different reasons, but I was not mad at either of them nor am I convinced we could have done better in either case. Bad in retrospect, yep...all of those were. I couldn't say any were bad given the landscape at the time.

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  3. #80
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RollTide_HTTR View Post
    Assuming the recruiting wheels don't fall off and Saban retires with Bama on top (which I think we all are assuming) then the next coach better be competing for National Championships in his first few years.
    Well, that's just the thing. Les Miles was able to keep the ball rolling for a considerable amount of time after Saban left. It was pretty obvious to most he really was just riding out the success that Saban had built, and it would not last. Miles never came off as a coach who could have done at LSU what Saban did. Any pretty good coach can ride on our momentum for a while after Saban leaves. We want someone who can sustain it long term and not let it peter out the way that happened at LSU. And no, I don't know who that could possibly be.

  4. #81
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Coughlin was who I wanted, although some of his subsequent behavior during games in the NFL makes me question whether that would have gone over so well with young guys.
    Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


    But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    I have seen some of you say you don't want anyone you can't say for sure would win an NC
    Here is the problem. Like I said earlier, whoever takes over after CNS will have a NC capable team for like 5 years. Dubose certaintly had that in 1999 but his stupidity lost it. Alabama probably was the best team in 1999 top to bottom. So yes, many are very hesitant on just allowing an unproven person to get the job. Point is I would rather hire Mike Gundy with all his obnoxious behaivor and near misses than practically anyone on our staff because its less of a risk than putting a guy that has never been a big time HC trying to replicate CNS because that is the only way he knows. CNS teachs his assistants a lot, but CNS doesnt teach them everything he knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    Unless you want Dabo, you are likely going to at least somewhat roll the dice on someone who has not yet shown they can pull it off (or go with someone who has won on another level, like the NDSU coach).
    .
    You are probably wondering why so many are not overally excited about Dabo... Me personally I would take him, but many have two big reasons of not wanting him. 1) His Rah Rah style comes across as a bit "barnish" to many, and 2) He was involved in some really unethical recruiting practices when he was a coach here. Thats why its not as unanimous Dabo is our man here
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    As for the whole debate about awful coaches in our history, I don't think it fair to call any of them terrible hires. .
    Perkins- Maybe maybe not
    Curry- Did just as much good as he did bad. But recruited some really great teams. But Bowden shouldve been the man.
    Stallings- He was better than average. Won a National Championship, but was too conservative to compete with Spurrier
    Dubose- Horrible Hire
    Fran- It wouldve been better without sanctions, but we will never forgive or forget at how he left. On the field he was an improvement over Dubose
    Price- Horrible hire
    Shula- Mediocre Hire, and still not the best we couldve got.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    Bad in retrospect, yep...all of those were. I couldn't say any were bad given the landscape at the time.
    Shula, Curry, and Dubose all were bad hires at the time because we had a chance at clearly better coaches.
    Price, Fran, and Perkins were unknowns
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


    But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

    You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    I have seen some of you say you don't want anyone you can't say for sure would win an NC. Right now, there are only 4 coaches in football who can say they have(Swinney, Meyer, Fisher, Saban). Unless you want Dabo, you are likely going to at least somewhat roll the dice on someone who has not yet shown they can pull it off (or go with someone who has won on another level, like the NDSU coach).

    As for the whole debate about awful coaches in our history, I don't think it fair to call any of them terrible hires. In retrospect, they ended up being so. But making the hire at the time they did wasn't necessarily a terrible call. I wish we had gone with Beamer back when Coach Stallings left, but we didn't. I didn't want Dubose, but thought maybe he would be ok. He had one good year, at least. I was fully on board with the Fran hire, and that didn't work out. We were in a bad predicament when it came time for the Price/Shula hires. Both worked out badly for different reasons, but I was not mad at either of them nor am I convinced we could have done better in either case. Bad in retrospect, yep...all of those were. I couldn't say any were bad given the landscape at the time.

    Let me explain myself (others can if they wish).


    Whoever came after Coach Bryant was going to have problems. It just happened to be Ray Perkins, who just happened to come across as one of the most arrogant people you could ever see. I'm not saying he was arrogant, I don't know. But he looked so arrogant on TV and so standoffish about everything that he made his own problems. Perkins did draw a bad hand in that he was up against Pat Dye, a guy who had no scruples about telling high school kids, "Bayuh ain't gunna be thay-uh when you get ole 'nuff." That and Bryant's staff royally botching the Bo Jackson recruitment. Shula got away with it for years just looking like one of those "ho hum, no big deal" guys on TV, swell feller. It wasn't reality, it was how he looked. Perkins LOOKED arrogant at every turn. I don't know the man, and the TV can be cruel to folks - but how he looked under the circumstances he was in didn't help matters.

    I would hasten to add that Perkins was, in fact, Bryant's choice to replace him, as has been covered ad nauseum on this board.


    Bill Curry had the misfortune to see the guy we should have hired hit his stride right about the time Curry was losing to Memphis. He made it worse with his seeming to chicken out playing ATM when Hurricane Gilbert never arrived. He was also here when the Iron Bowl got moved (again - what was he supposed to do about it?), and when Ted Bundy threw a nuclear warhead through his window or something lost to history. Then, the bonehead reverses history by leaving UA for UK, which would have been OK if he was a basketball coach.


    Perkins was hired with Bryant's endorsement, so it's hard to attack that as a poor choice, but Curry was a poor choice when whatever drunk member of the coaching search team said, "Hey, haw 'bout Bell KUR-ree?"

    Stallings was not the best choice in 1990, Bobby Bowden was. And I'll admit I was wary of the hire given his record as head coach. Bowden took himself out of the running so Stallings wasn't a bad choice, and he DID have college coaching experience.

    Mike DuBose was the Gene Chizik hire at Alabama. There is NO WAY to justify giving an immature teenager with no driving experience the keys to the stick shift Ferrari, but we somehow did it. I knew it was awful the day I heard his name, and he needs to thank Shaun Alexander for that SEC title ring every night he prays.

    I opposed Franchione, but I'd warn everyone that that hire - far more than the later ones - was where we were more up against it than at any other time. I've heard tell that Butch Davis had a handshake deal only to find out we were going to get hit with a bomb (and he'd just been through that at Miami), so he backed out. You have to remember that Franchione came along after Davis and Frank Beamer and Tommy Bowden used us for big raises and Mickey Andrews came out saying he wanted it. It was basically between Fran and Walt Harris. Hell, Jackie Sherrill called a local press conference in Mississippi and pulled a Houston Nutt, declaring that he was not interested in a job he had no chance at getting in the first place.

    Franchione was probably the best available under the circumstances - as the NCAA revelations hit the paper just over a week before he took the job.

    When you look at the list of names with Price, you have to really wonder who he slept with to move to the front of that line. It was - apparently - an omen. And Shula, well, I threw in with Shula because firing Croom, which was likely inevitable regardless who we hired, was going to bring out some sociological wrath. Hell, we got enough grief when we didn't hire Croom after Notre Dame hired Willingham.


    So I'd say Curry, Price, and Shula were bad hires.
    Franchione was a "best under circumstances" hire (which everyone thinks of Shula but isn't true).

    And DuBose was the worst hire since Mr Lippman hired George Costanza after hearing the latter's favorite author was Art Vandelay.
    "And if I die in Raleigh - at least I will die free"

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


    But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

    It DOES feel like that doesn't it???
    "And if I die in Raleigh - at least I will die free"

    "In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Tuscaloosa underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...the REC."

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
    Because everytime someone starts the revisionist view about Shula "not being that bad", "Shula not being a bad hire", or "Shula was way better than those guys" we inevitably get to "Shula never got a fair shot" and "Shula took a job no one wanted" All threads that try to paint Shula in a positive light usually devolve into hero worshipping him. He was a mediocre coach, and wasn't the best interested candidate of the search. It was a bad hire plain and simple.
    Last edited by 81usaf92; July 6th, 2018 at 06:06 PM.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
    Just to be clear - are you saying you'd like evidence that Shula was a bad hire? (honest, I'm asking for clarification here).
    "And if I die in Raleigh - at least I will die free"

    "In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Tuscaloosa underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...the REC."

  11. #88
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWave View Post
    You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
    Mal, the AD, wanted Richard Williamson, who would have taken the job. He would have been a big upgrade over Shula or Croom. He played at Bama and coached under Bryant. He had been OC for 3 years under Broyles at Ark. The took the Memphis HC job and did a nice job til the last year and he was fired. He won the conf COY twice. He then coached in the NFL from 83 til the Bama opening in 2003. But my main reason for wanting him is that Mal wanted him. He had had success as a HC in college and was considered a good coach in general. IMO, Croom would have also been a bad choice and at that time Alabama could have never fired a black HC if it became necessary. It may have taken 7 years. The outcry would have been deafening. Though as far as I know that is not the reason Bama didn't hire him. It was primarily Perkins' lack of support is a nice way of saying it. He was obviously right, he was wrong about Shula though. But my purpose for that list of who wanted who and who was hired, was to show the wisdom of the AD in almost every case. OTOH, each time the Pres, boosters, ??? and fans got their choice over the AD, it turned out badly.

    Tom Coughlin who was available at the time having been fired from Jax in 2002 and would not be hired by NY til 04. He stated publicly, published in a newspaper at the time, that he was definitely interested.

    Bill Parcells even expressed nominal interest. You have to remember that he had a strong indirect ties to Bama having been on Perkins staff before he took over when Perkins left for Bama. He was also Steve Sloan's assistant at Vanderbilt for 2 years. I doubt his interest was substantive, but he mumbled around about it. I remember having a difficult time envisioning him recruiting in Wilcox county in a house with a one light hanging from the living room ceiling on a cold winter night.

    Les Miles who was at OSU at the time had expressed genuine interest around that time, though I don't if he would have left OSU in the spring of 2003.

    There were others - it's been 15 years, seems like 30. It was not a great job at the time, but it is totally misleading to say that no one wanted the job. The primary drawback was that it was in the spring. There would have been numerous parties interested at the normal time.
    Last edited by BamaInBham; July 6th, 2018 at 06:28 PM.

  12. #89
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    This is a good and informative post, just a couple of things...

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    Mal, the AD, wanted Richard Williamson, who would have taken the job. He would have been a big upgrade over Shula or Croom. He played at Bama and coached under Bryant. He had been OC for 3 years under Broyles at Ark. The took the Memphis HC job and did a nice job til the last year and he was fired. He won the conf COY twice. He then coached in the NFL from 83 til the Bama opening in 2003. But my main reason for wanting him is that Mal wanted him. He had had success as a HC in college and was considered a good coach in general. IMO, Croom would have also been a bad choice and at that time Alabama could have never fired a black HC if it became necessary. It may have taken 7 years. The outcry would have been deafening. Though as far as I know that is not the reason Bama didn't hire him. It was primarily Perkins' lack of support is a nice way of saying it. He was obviously right, he was wrong about Shula though. But my purpose for that list of who wanted who and who was hired, was to show the wisdom of the AD in almost every case. OTOH, each time the Pres, boosters, ??? and fans got their choice over the AD, it turned out badly.
    Croom didn't get the job NOT because we didn't want to hire the black guy but because we didn't want to have to FIRE the black guy. There's not a doubt in my mind that played a role. He might have been minimally more successful than Shula, but I doubt it. And then when we canned him, the same folks who butchered us for not hiring him would have been the same folks saying, "But you were on probation and he never had a fair chance!" I came across a Mike Bianchi piece today looking up articles, and it was one of the most wretched pieces of crap I've ever read - and given his history that says a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    Tom Coughlin who was available at the time having been fired from Jax in 2002 and would not be hired by NY til 04. He stated publicly, published in a newspaper at the time, that he was definitely interested.
    You're right on here, and he was who I wanted. Any guy who can win nine games at Boston College with all their limitations ought to be able to make a big splash nationally at Alabama.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    Bill Parcells even expressed nominal interest. You have to remember that he had a strong indirect ties to Bama having been on Perkins staff before he took over when Perkins left for Bama. He was also Steve Sloan's assistant at Vanderbilt for 2 years. I doubt his interest was substantive, but he mumbled around about it. I remember having a difficult time envisioning him recruiting in Wilcox county in a house with a one light hanging from the living room ceiling on a cold winter night.
    I think you're conflating hirings, which is understandable. Parcells DID express interest - I'll never forget my utter shock reading that. It was kept "down home cuz," but Parcells indicated his interest on the day Franchione bolted, and a series of calls with Mal occurred. We basically said thanks, no thanks. But he wasn't in line for the 2003 spring job because he was announced as the Cowboys' new coach on January 3, 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    Les Miles who was at OSU at the time had expressed genuine interest around that time, though I don't if he would have left OSU in the spring of 2003.
    I'm told he would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    There were others - it's been 15 years, seems like 30. It was not a great job at the time, but it is totally misleading to say that no one wanted the job. The primary drawback was that it was in the spring. There would have been numerous parties interested at the normal time.
    But the problem here is that there wasn't immense interest by any means even in December 2002. There was certainly more than in November 2000, however.
    "And if I die in Raleigh - at least I will die free"

    "In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Tuscaloosa underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...the REC."

  13. #90
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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    I do not recall a public outcry when MSU fired Sylvester Croom.
    "My momma always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on." Forrest Gump

    "The past is never dead. It's not even past." William Faulkner

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    Re: Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    I do not recall a public outcry when MSU fired Sylvester Croom.
    MSU isn't Alabama and never will be.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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