Offseason Question: When Saban Retires.....Who?

81usaf92

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Coughlin was who I wanted, although some of his subsequent behavior during games in the NFL makes me question whether that would have gone over so well with young guys.
Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

 

81usaf92

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I have seen some of you say you don't want anyone you can't say for sure would win an NC
Here is the problem. Like I said earlier, whoever takes over after CNS will have a NC capable team for like 5 years. Dubose certaintly had that in 1999 but his stupidity lost it. Alabama probably was the best team in 1999 top to bottom. So yes, many are very hesitant on just allowing an unproven person to get the job. Point is I would rather hire Mike Gundy with all his obnoxious behaivor and near misses than practically anyone on our staff because its less of a risk than putting a guy that has never been a big time HC trying to replicate CNS because that is the only way he knows. CNS teachs his assistants a lot, but CNS doesnt teach them everything he knows.
Unless you want Dabo, you are likely going to at least somewhat roll the dice on someone who has not yet shown they can pull it off (or go with someone who has won on another level, like the NDSU coach).
.
You are probably wondering why so many are not overally excited about Dabo... Me personally I would take him, but many have two big reasons of not wanting him. 1) His Rah Rah style comes across as a bit "barnish" to many, and 2) He was involved in some really unethical recruiting practices when he was a coach here. Thats why its not as unanimous Dabo is our man here
As for the whole debate about awful coaches in our history, I don't think it fair to call any of them terrible hires. .
Perkins- Maybe maybe not
Curry- Did just as much good as he did bad. But recruited some really great teams. But Bowden shouldve been the man.
Stallings- He was better than average. Won a National Championship, but was too conservative to compete with Spurrier
Dubose- Horrible Hire
Fran- It wouldve been better without sanctions, but we will never forgive or forget at how he left. On the field he was an improvement over Dubose
Price- Horrible hire
Shula- Mediocre Hire, and still not the best we couldve got.
Bad in retrospect, yep...all of those were. I couldn't say any were bad given the landscape at the time.
Shula, Curry, and Dubose all were bad hires at the time because we had a chance at clearly better coaches.
Price, Fran, and Perkins were unknowns
 

RedWave

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Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I have seen some of you say you don't want anyone you can't say for sure would win an NC. Right now, there are only 4 coaches in football who can say they have(Swinney, Meyer, Fisher, Saban). Unless you want Dabo, you are likely going to at least somewhat roll the dice on someone who has not yet shown they can pull it off (or go with someone who has won on another level, like the NDSU coach).

As for the whole debate about awful coaches in our history, I don't think it fair to call any of them terrible hires. In retrospect, they ended up being so. But making the hire at the time they did wasn't necessarily a terrible call. I wish we had gone with Beamer back when Coach Stallings left, but we didn't. I didn't want Dubose, but thought maybe he would be ok. He had one good year, at least. I was fully on board with the Fran hire, and that didn't work out. We were in a bad predicament when it came time for the Price/Shula hires. Both worked out badly for different reasons, but I was not mad at either of them nor am I convinced we could have done better in either case. Bad in retrospect, yep...all of those were. I couldn't say any were bad given the landscape at the time.

Let me explain myself (others can if they wish).


Whoever came after Coach Bryant was going to have problems. It just happened to be Ray Perkins, who just happened to come across as one of the most arrogant people you could ever see. I'm not saying he was arrogant, I don't know. But he looked so arrogant on TV and so standoffish about everything that he made his own problems. Perkins did draw a bad hand in that he was up against Pat Dye, a guy who had no scruples about telling high school kids, "Bayuh ain't gunna be thay-uh when you get ole 'nuff." That and Bryant's staff royally botching the Bo Jackson recruitment. Shula got away with it for years just looking like one of those "ho hum, no big deal" guys on TV, swell feller. It wasn't reality, it was how he looked. Perkins LOOKED arrogant at every turn. I don't know the man, and the TV can be cruel to folks - but how he looked under the circumstances he was in didn't help matters.

I would hasten to add that Perkins was, in fact, Bryant's choice to replace him, as has been covered ad nauseum on this board.


Bill Curry had the misfortune to see the guy we should have hired hit his stride right about the time Curry was losing to Memphis. He made it worse with his seeming to chicken out playing ATM when Hurricane Gilbert never arrived. He was also here when the Iron Bowl got moved (again - what was he supposed to do about it?), and when Ted Bundy threw a nuclear warhead through his window or something lost to history. Then, the bonehead reverses history by leaving UA for UK, which would have been OK if he was a basketball coach.


Perkins was hired with Bryant's endorsement, so it's hard to attack that as a poor choice, but Curry was a poor choice when whatever drunk member of the coaching search team said, "Hey, haw 'bout Bell KUR-ree?"

Stallings was not the best choice in 1990, Bobby Bowden was. And I'll admit I was wary of the hire given his record as head coach. Bowden took himself out of the running so Stallings wasn't a bad choice, and he DID have college coaching experience.

Mike DuBose was the Gene Chizik hire at Alabama. There is NO WAY to justify giving an immature teenager with no driving experience the keys to the stick shift Ferrari, but we somehow did it. I knew it was awful the day I heard his name, and he needs to thank Shaun Alexander for that SEC title ring every night he prays.

I opposed Franchione, but I'd warn everyone that that hire - far more than the later ones - was where we were more up against it than at any other time. I've heard tell that Butch Davis had a handshake deal only to find out we were going to get hit with a bomb (and he'd just been through that at Miami), so he backed out. You have to remember that Franchione came along after Davis and Frank Beamer and Tommy Bowden used us for big raises and Mickey Andrews came out saying he wanted it. It was basically between Fran and Walt Harris. Hell, Jackie Sherrill called a local press conference in Mississippi and pulled a Houston Nutt, declaring that he was not interested in a job he had no chance at getting in the first place.

Franchione was probably the best available under the circumstances - as the NCAA revelations hit the paper just over a week before he took the job.

When you look at the list of names with Price, you have to really wonder who he slept with to move to the front of that line. It was - apparently - an omen. And Shula, well, I threw in with Shula because firing Croom, which was likely inevitable regardless who we hired, was going to bring out some sociological wrath. Hell, we got enough grief when we didn't hire Croom after Notre Dame hired Willingham.


So I'd say Curry, Price, and Shula were bad hires.
Franchione was a "best under circumstances" hire (which everyone thinks of Shula but isn't true).

And DuBose was the worst hire since Mr Lippman hired George Costanza after hearing the latter's favorite author was Art Vandelay.
 

81usaf92

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You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
Because everytime someone starts the revisionist view about Shula "not being that bad", "Shula not being a bad hire", or "Shula was way better than those guys" we inevitably get to "Shula never got a fair shot" and "Shula took a job no one wanted" All threads that try to paint Shula in a positive light usually devolve into hero worshipping him. He was a mediocre coach, and wasn't the best interested candidate of the search. It was a bad hire plain and simple.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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Yeah me too, but if we were going to go with a guy who played at Alabama because we wanted an in the family pick to play steward after being burned twice from outsiders then I really think Sly should've gotten it over Shula. More experience, more time with Alabama, and it wouldve just been a better pick. JIMO


But I have a feeling that we are just about to that point of the Shula discussion in which we are about to here the infamous, "SHULA TOOK A JOB NOONE ELSE WANTED" line. So.....

It DOES feel like that doesn't it???
 

selmaborntidefan

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You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
Just to be clear - are you saying you'd like evidence that Shula was a bad hire? (honest, I'm asking for clarification here).
 

BamaInBham

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You say this, yet nobody has shown anything saying otherwise. I would gladly believe it if you could provide any morsel of evidence to the contrary.
Mal, the AD, wanted Richard Williamson, who would have taken the job. He would have been a big upgrade over Shula or Croom. He played at Bama and coached under Bryant. He had been OC for 3 years under Broyles at Ark. The took the Memphis HC job and did a nice job til the last year and he was fired. He won the conf COY twice. He then coached in the NFL from 83 til the Bama opening in 2003. But my main reason for wanting him is that Mal wanted him. He had had success as a HC in college and was considered a good coach in general. IMO, Croom would have also been a bad choice and at that time Alabama could have never fired a black HC if it became necessary. It may have taken 7 years. The outcry would have been deafening. Though as far as I know that is not the reason Bama didn't hire him. It was primarily Perkins' lack of support is a nice way of saying it. He was obviously right, he was wrong about Shula though. But my purpose for that list of who wanted who and who was hired, was to show the wisdom of the AD in almost every case. OTOH, each time the Pres, boosters, ??? and fans got their choice over the AD, it turned out badly.

Tom Coughlin who was available at the time having been fired from Jax in 2002 and would not be hired by NY til 04. He stated publicly, published in a newspaper at the time, that he was definitely interested.

Bill Parcells even expressed nominal interest. You have to remember that he had a strong indirect ties to Bama having been on Perkins staff before he took over when Perkins left for Bama. He was also Steve Sloan's assistant at Vanderbilt for 2 years. I doubt his interest was substantive, but he mumbled around about it. I remember having a difficult time envisioning him recruiting in Wilcox county in a house with a one light hanging from the living room ceiling on a cold winter night.

Les Miles who was at OSU at the time had expressed genuine interest around that time, though I don't if he would have left OSU in the spring of 2003.

There were others - it's been 15 years, seems like 30. It was not a great job at the time, but it is totally misleading to say that no one wanted the job. The primary drawback was that it was in the spring. There would have been numerous parties interested at the normal time.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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This is a good and informative post, just a couple of things...

Mal, the AD, wanted Richard Williamson, who would have taken the job. He would have been a big upgrade over Shula or Croom. He played at Bama and coached under Bryant. He had been OC for 3 years under Broyles at Ark. The took the Memphis HC job and did a nice job til the last year and he was fired. He won the conf COY twice. He then coached in the NFL from 83 til the Bama opening in 2003. But my main reason for wanting him is that Mal wanted him. He had had success as a HC in college and was considered a good coach in general. IMO, Croom would have also been a bad choice and at that time Alabama could have never fired a black HC if it became necessary. It may have taken 7 years. The outcry would have been deafening. Though as far as I know that is not the reason Bama didn't hire him. It was primarily Perkins' lack of support is a nice way of saying it. He was obviously right, he was wrong about Shula though. But my purpose for that list of who wanted who and who was hired, was to show the wisdom of the AD in almost every case. OTOH, each time the Pres, boosters, ??? and fans got their choice over the AD, it turned out badly.
Croom didn't get the job NOT because we didn't want to hire the black guy but because we didn't want to have to FIRE the black guy. There's not a doubt in my mind that played a role. He might have been minimally more successful than Shula, but I doubt it. And then when we canned him, the same folks who butchered us for not hiring him would have been the same folks saying, "But you were on probation and he never had a fair chance!" I came across a Mike Bianchi piece today looking up articles, and it was one of the most wretched pieces of crap I've ever read - and given his history that says a lot.


Tom Coughlin who was available at the time having been fired from Jax in 2002 and would not be hired by NY til 04. He stated publicly, published in a newspaper at the time, that he was definitely interested.
You're right on here, and he was who I wanted. Any guy who can win nine games at Boston College with all their limitations ought to be able to make a big splash nationally at Alabama.

Bill Parcells even expressed nominal interest. You have to remember that he had a strong indirect ties to Bama having been on Perkins staff before he took over when Perkins left for Bama. He was also Steve Sloan's assistant at Vanderbilt for 2 years. I doubt his interest was substantive, but he mumbled around about it. I remember having a difficult time envisioning him recruiting in Wilcox county in a house with a one light hanging from the living room ceiling on a cold winter night.
I think you're conflating hirings, which is understandable. Parcells DID express interest - I'll never forget my utter shock reading that. It was kept "down home cuz," but Parcells indicated his interest on the day Franchione bolted, and a series of calls with Mal occurred. We basically said thanks, no thanks. But he wasn't in line for the 2003 spring job because he was announced as the Cowboys' new coach on January 3, 2003.

Les Miles who was at OSU at the time had expressed genuine interest around that time, though I don't if he would have left OSU in the spring of 2003.
I'm told he would have.

There were others - it's been 15 years, seems like 30. It was not a great job at the time, but it is totally misleading to say that no one wanted the job. The primary drawback was that it was in the spring. There would have been numerous parties interested at the normal time.
But the problem here is that there wasn't immense interest by any means even in December 2002. There was certainly more than in November 2000, however.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I do not recall a public outcry when MSU fired Sylvester Croom.

1) MSU isn't Alabama
2) MSU only hired him to get a lighter probation from the NCAA
3) MSU was not on probation when he was hired
4) MSU is the school that snuck out during the days of Jim Crow to play a black basketball team, so their record on civil rights is
much better than most others in the SEC
 

BamaInBham

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I think you're conflating hirings, which is understandable. Parcells DID express interest - I'll never forget my utter shock reading that. It was kept "down home cuz," but Parcells indicated his interest on the day Franchione bolted, and a series of calls with Mal occurred. We basically said thanks, no thanks. But he wasn't in line for the 2003 spring job because he was announced as the Cowboys' new coach on January 3, 2003.
Thanks for the correction. I never thought he was a viable option anyway whenever he was "in play". But at least he wasn't ashamed to be linked with Bama :). As I said, I'm also unsure on the timing with Miles. I was also unsure on Parcells but forgot to mention it in my blurb about him.

With Coughlin, who would obviously had been a homerun hire, I felt he would leave fairly quickly if something better came along, as it was likely to do - like the Giants. OTOH, I believe since he is probably an honorable man that he might have entered a gentleman's agreement to stay say 4 years before leaving.

I still think Williamson, who "seemed" to have little personality, Idk, would have been a much better hire than either Shula or Croom. The main reason is that Mal who was a good judge of coaches wanted him. Also, his credentials were superior - he had been a decent college HC. The AD was right again. I don't blame Shula but primarily the circumstances. It was very hard to be a Bama athletics decision-maker at the time. And Shula at least avoided almost any embarrassing losses. But he could hardly win a big game with UF and 5-6 UT in 05 being the only exceptions. He lost so many close games. He had a very weak staff except for Kines.
 

alwayshavebeen

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Let me explain myself (others can if they wish).

Stallings was not the best choice in 1990, Bobby Bowden was. And I'll admit I was wary of the hire given his record as head coach. Bowden took himself out of the running so Stallings wasn't a bad choice, and he DID have college coaching experience.
Maybe I'm cherry picking from the entire post, but I seriously disagree with Stallings wasn't the best choice in 1990, and think the Stallings wasn't a bad choice comment is a major understatement. Only what if I have with that era is what if he had stayed another few years? Great Man and Great Coach IMO.
 

81usaf92

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Maybe I'm cherry picking from the entire post, but I seriously disagree with Stallings wasn't the best choice in 1990, and think the Stallings wasn't a bad choice comment is a major understatement. Only what if I have with that era is what if he had stayed another few years? Great Man and Great Coach IMO.
The biggest gripe I have with CGS is that he was too stubborn at times. The 94 season he handcuffed Homer Smith. I think he wouldn't have beaten Florida from 97-01. Dubose's 1st win was in spite of him, but in favor of an aggressive offense.

I agree with Selma in that he was a good pick, but not the best pick. Bowden was the best pick
 

WylieTexasTider

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I can see Saban coaching another 8-10 years assuming his health remains. My reasoning is two fold:

1. Someone who talks to Saban and as recently as A-day chatted about the future, made it clear at a dinner recently he sees Nick coaching another 8-10 years. Reasoning was A. Nick only knows coaching and B. His Legacy.... (See #2 below) On a side, I commented great! we should win another couple of titles. The response was "Are you stupid? Try 4 or 5..."
2. Nick needs 106 wins to pass The Bear in all time wins in College and 106 to pass The Bear for most wins as BAMA HC. If he averages just under 12 wins per year, that is 9 seasons. (Since Saban has been at BAMA the fewest wins he has averaged in any 4 year period is 12. (I did throw out 2007) Twice he has average over 13 wins and the 2018 team could hit a 14 win average if they run the table. To keep the 12 win average they need 7 wins.

A dream would be if he coached till he was 80 like Bowden and averaged 13 wins... He'd hit 400. I know the chances of him coaching till he is 80 is like all of us becoming AUburn fans tonight but, food for thought.....
 

selmaborntidefan

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Maybe I'm cherry picking from the entire post, but I seriously disagree with Stallings wasn't the best choice in 1990, and think the Stallings wasn't a bad choice comment is a major understatement. Only what if I have with that era is what if he had stayed another few years? Great Man and Great Coach IMO.
When we chose Stallings, he had a worse career record than Bill Curry. To be fair, he also had a stellar career as a Landry assistant.

Here are the names I found in the newspapers at the time:
Bobby Bowden - the moment our job came open, he got offered that lifetime contract
Mickey Andrews - FSU DC at the time
Gene Stallings
Howard Schnellenberger
Danny Ford
Richard Williamson


I may be wrong, but from some comments that made it into the press at the time, I'm guessing Curry was likely gone anyway. One trustee was quoted as saying that the mere fact Curry was publicly ruminating about leaving Alabama for KENTUCKY of all places was harming the program.

Btw - Stallings was actually interviewing and in the run for the Navy job when his name hit the news as a candidate for us. I'm NOT making that up. Navy. In fact, Stallings publicly withdrew from the Navy search because he wasn't willing to commit to them for as long as they wanted. Bowden's agent denied Bobby was even up for the job (BB was overseas coaching the Japan Bowl). Schnellenberger publicly said he wasn't interested. Also a name in the papers? Jimmy Fuller.

On January 10, Hootie Ingram announced the search was down to four people: Stallings, Williamson, Andrews, and Fuller.

Stallings by far had the best resume of those four.

Maybe the view depends on whether or not Bowden could be considered a serious candidate in 1990; he certainly was in 1987.
 

4Q Basket Case

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This is a good and informative post, just a couple of things...



Croom didn't get the job NOT because we didn't want to hire the black guy but because we didn't want to have to FIRE the black guy. There's not a doubt in my mind that played a role. He might have been minimally more successful than Shula, but I doubt it. And then when we canned him, the same folks who butchered us for not hiring him would have been the same folks saying, "But you were on probation and he never had a fair chance!"....
I've said this for years. But men hear what they want to hear, and disregard the rest.
 

alwayshavebeen

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The biggest gripe I have with CGS is that he was too stubborn at times. The 94 season he handcuffed Homer Smith. I think he wouldn't have beaten Florida from 97-01. Dubose's 1st win was in spite of him, but in favor of an aggressive offense.

I agree with Selma in that he was a good pick, but not the best pick. Bowden was the best pick
Bowden won a grand total of 2 NC's in 34 years at FSU playing Independent 1976-1991, and then in a woefully weak ACC 1992-2009. In his last 10 years at FSU he lost 44 games and 22 in the last 5 years. Further... in his 18 seasons at FSU while playing in the ACC his record was 73-32...And for comparison sake from 1990 (the year CGS was hired) Bowden went 94-36 playing no where near the schedule Bama faced. IMO not very impressive at all.
 

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