Immigration and Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.)

chanson78

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a meme I saw on this but cannot find at the moment

conservatives are always saying "you like immigrants so much would you take them in your house?" "For $775 a day I'll take 4 and buy a bigger house, I'll even give them food, blankets and toothbrushes"
Random Trump supporter: "All government is bad! Thank God for Donald Trump cleaning up the corruption of Washington. He is locking up all of these brown people seeking asylum and making sure that his private prison friends are able to house them for 775$/day. It sure is a good thing that we aren't letting these people mooch of the system."

I think maybe its really just a problem of perception. With a good marketing team, Trump could claim that he is far more progressive than the left. Immigrants and asylum seekers have come to this country and the Trump administration is putting a roof over their head and feeding them.
 

BamaInCummingGA

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While I agree 100% that there has to be a better way, we simply cannot just have "anarchy" and let just anyone and everyone in to this country.
Whether you're talking detention camps, jail, sending people back to where they came from or whatever it all costs tax payer dollars. It also costs taxpayer dollars for illegals (of any race, color, religion, sex, etc) to come over here and get free education (without having to learn English), free healthcare, wellfare, ect.
I do not know what the complete 100% good answer for everyone is. We need people here from other countries who have skills and want to assimilate into the American fabric and not bring all of their customs etc here and expect this country to bow down to that. We certainly need to filter out criminals as much as possible (oh, well, there goes most of our politicians on both sides). Can we make the process more streamlined? Probably. Can we come to some sort of happy medium? Probably if the entrenched idealogues (SP?) would get out of the way so we could have meaningful discussions and get something done. Everyone loves to blame Trump (and I'm no lover of all things Trump) but to be fair both sides have had plenty of opportunity to get something done.
Our political "leaders" have dropped the ball for a long time. Neither side wants to give an inch or compromise. This in and of itself is a shame. And shame on us as citizens of this country for letting these clowns do this,
 

rgw

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I don't care for borders because I think ultimately they limit "us" because we're somewhat stuck inside them and make us beholden to the state. That is a problem when the state isn't really serving the average person very well which is increasingly evermore the case in the United States. I don't know a good realistic alternative to borders because it is a global consensus deal but I know concentration camps ain't it.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I don't care for borders because I think ultimately they limit "us" because we're somewhat stuck inside them and make us beholden to the state. That is a problem when the state isn't really serving the average person very well which is increasingly evermore the case in the United States. I don't know a good realistic alternative to borders because it is a global consensus deal but I know concentration camps ain't it.
Borders are inherent to humanity. So long as people distinguish themselves from close neighbors by tongue or customs, there will be self-imposed borders. It's not usually by "race," unless that's a construct, because most borders don't separate people of markedly different skin tones or features. Governments come along later and impose borders arbitrarily. However, over time, the borders generally evolve towards a map which the people agree with - see Jugoslavia. I watched the dissolution of the Soviet Empire with interest to see where those borders would end up because of the contamination of the Russian emigres. It didn't seem to matter much...
 
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NationalTitles18

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While I agree 100% that there has to be a better way, we simply cannot just have "anarchy" and let just anyone and everyone in to this country.
Whether you're talking detention camps, jail, sending people back to where they came from or whatever it all costs tax payer dollars. It also costs taxpayer dollars for illegals (of any race, color, religion, sex, etc) to come over here and get free education (without having to learn English), free healthcare, wellfare, ect.
I do not know what the complete 100% good answer for everyone is. We need people here from other countries who have skills and want to assimilate into the American fabric and not bring all of their customs etc here and expect this country to bow down to that. We certainly need to filter out criminals as much as possible (oh, well, there goes most of our politicians on both sides). Can we make the process more streamlined? Probably. Can we come to some sort of happy medium? Probably if the entrenched idealogues (SP?) would get out of the way so we could have meaningful discussions and get something done. Everyone loves to blame Trump (and I'm no lover of all things Trump) but to be fair both sides have had plenty of opportunity to get something done.
Our political "leaders" have dropped the ball for a long time. Neither side wants to give an inch or compromise. This in and of itself is a shame. And shame on us as citizens of this country for letting these clowns do this,
You make some good points. Yeah, there's always a "but" ...

But, St Patrick's Day is a wonderful holiday/custom that the country adopted. Mardi Gras is another. Some folks love Octoberfest. These are but a few of the customs people brought with them and that were woven into that American fabric. The country would not be what it is without a mutual acceptance and adoption of at least some customs and values.

The blowhards have made it seem like America doesn't have the ability to integrate and adapt, but it does. It has and it will.

I pretty much agree with you but there was that knit to pick.

Our leaders share blame, but I agree with you - so do we.
 
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crimsonaudio

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I don't care for borders because I think ultimately they limit "us" because we're somewhat stuck inside them and make us beholden to the state. That is a problem when the state isn't really serving the average person very well which is increasingly evermore the case in the United States. I don't know a good realistic alternative to borders because it is a global consensus deal but I know concentration camps ain't it.
If you want government, you get borders. They are inseparable.

I've no interest in anarchy.
 

tattooguy21

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I don't care for borders because I think ultimately they limit "us" because we're somewhat stuck inside them and make us beholden to the state. That is a problem when the state isn't really serving the average person very well which is increasingly evermore the case in the United States. I don't know a good realistic alternative to borders because it is a global consensus deal but I know concentration camps ain't it.
I don't......what? You're ok with borders. You're absolutely fine with borders. In fact, you're a liar for saying you're not. I can even prove it.

Do you own property? House, apartment, land?

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rgw

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I don't......what? You're ok with borders. You're absolutely fine with borders. In fact, you're a liar for saying you're not. I can even prove it.

Do you own property? House, apartment, land?

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Holy false equivalence Batman!
 

rgw

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Well first of all I don't feign to have a solution to borders but simply acknowledge in a narrow sense - having to do with citizenship - borders are mixed bag for individuals...only working out when you hit the cosmic lottery and were born on the "right side of one" at that moment in time. Americans don't live this that reality so they don't give it much thought. Citizenship and borders can effectively look like a slavery of sorts. Your labor and earnings being completely dependent upon the rules and prosperity of the nation you just so happened to be born into being a citizen; the ability to leave and take on another almost entirely dependent on your economic value to the destination nation.

Ultimately borders are just as much about claiming people - their skills and other economic value - as it is about land. I don't think most Americans see it that way because being claimed by a nation has generated value for them but I do think that is getting worse over time for more Americans. Why else would we want to keep others out than to not share a shrinking pie?
 

TIDE-HSV

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Well first of all I don't feign to have a solution to borders but simply acknowledge in a narrow sense - having to do with citizenship - borders are mixed bag for individuals...only working out when you hit the cosmic lottery and were born on the "right side of one" at that moment in time. Americans don't live this that reality so they don't give it much thought. Citizenship and borders can effectively look like a slavery of sorts. Your labor and earnings being completely dependent upon the rules and prosperity of the nation you just so happened to be born into being a citizen; the ability to leave and take on another almost entirely dependent on your economic value to the destination nation.

Ultimately borders are just as much about claiming people - their skills and other economic value - as it is about land. I don't think most Americans see it that way because being claimed by a nation has generated value for them but I do think that is getting worse over time for more Americans. Why else would we want to keep others out than to not share a shrinking pie?
Well, as I said above, borders don't need a solution because that's the wrong way to think about them. Borders are as human as breathing. There's no doing away with them. All primitive tribes have a designation of the "we" and "they." It's usually reflected in the tribal name - something like "the people," or "the men." An example is the French word for Germans - Allemagne. It comes from the German tribe "Allemanni" or "all men." The "other" usually has pejorative meanings. Those are always the people on the other side of the border. What's unique about the US is that, in other parts of the world, there's a cohesive culture and language, so borders are perfectly natural. You can understand a reluctance to share resources with "others." Here, there is an old and persisting bias against non-WASPs. The thing is that, over time, other European groups - German, Italians, Irish, etc. have slipped under the barrier. After all, they aren't brown and they don't speak Spanish as a native tongue. 100 years ago, Trump, with his German/Scottish ancestry would have been looked down upon, especially in Manhattan.

Now, let's address your approach on limitation of resources, which is really about border management. Trump is just using an age-old tool, revamped for modern age America. "We're full." "We have no more room." etc. Of course, it's false. We need the workers and he's distorting the labor market. America has always benefited from immigration. It's our very nature. Nevertheless, he's appealing to a very basic human instinct and knows what he's doing. One point he has is accurate. The US is genuinely incapable of providing asylum to every person in the world, or even Central America. Our present laws make us a magnet for asylum seekers. Compared to what they're leaving, internment camps aren't really all that bad. Andrea Merkel found that she - and Germany - couldn't absorb the entire Middle East, nor can we. The problem is that any common sense revision of our immigration statutes, given the present political climate, is impossible...
 

rgw

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I don't believe we are wholly limited by our genetics. We are only where we are today because we have proven to be able to be more than our genes would naturally lead us to be. I can't deny there is truth in what you're saying but I disagree that means we're condemned to most of our genetic limitations. But you're not wrong in highlighting how this is probably one of our strongest and hardest failings.
 

rgw

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Australians have a hellish island where they cage up their asylum seekers. Australia is basically more right than America in every way but national healthcare and firearms.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I don't believe we are wholly limited by our genetics. We are only where we are today because we have proven to be able to be more than our genes would naturally lead us to be. I can't deny there is truth in what you're saying but I disagree that means we're condemned to most of our genetic limitations. But you're not wrong in highlighting how this is probably one of our strongest and hardest failings.
If you think my post was only about genetics, you missed its import. Borders have much more to do with accidents of linguistics and culture than genetics. In the end, all of us from Europe are the product of a very turgid melting pot. For example, the Austrians and Hungarians share an almost identical haplogroup profile, brothers and sisters under the skin. The Hungarians speak Magyar and are extremely proud of their Hun heritage, which, it turns out, is very thin indeed. The Austrians consider themselves Germanic and speak German. They once had a relatively brief and very uncomfortable alliance as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but they basically have a lot of distaste for each other. Their border is there because both peoples desire it...
 
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Jon

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If you think my post was only about genetics, you missed its import. Borders have much more to do with accidents of linguistics and culture than genetics. In the end, all of us from Europe are the product of a very turgid melting pot. For example, the Austrians and Hungarians share an almost identical haplogroup profile, brothers and sisters under the skin. The Hungarians speak Magyar and are extremely proud of their Hun heritage, which, it turns out, is very thin indeed. The Austrians consider themselves Germanic and speak German. They once had a relatively brief and very uncomfortable alliance as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but they basically have a lot of distaste for each other. Their border is there because both peoples desire it...

but Europe was able to draw their lines fairly naturally. I'd argue that was not the case for most of the rest of the world including the entire western hemisphere. Go back 200 years and there is little discernible difference between Juarez and El Paso or San Diego and Tijuana or for that matter Maine and Eastern Canada. In fact if language is the determining factor most of Texas all the Way to San Francisco should be a part of Mexico. Maine and a huge swatch of French Canada should be it's own Country and large portions of the great plains should be varying countries of indigenous peoples. Alaska would be half Canadian, half Russian, Hawaii would be it's own thing, same for Puerto Rico and the USVI, etc.

Sorry Earl but I'd say your argument only works for Europe and parts of Asia, everywhere else has too much artificiality in their borders due to colonialism and conquest
 

BamaFlum

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but Europe was able to draw their lines fairly naturally. I'd argue that was not the case for most of the rest of the world including the entire western hemisphere. Go back 200 years and there is little discernible difference between Juarez and El Paso or San Diego and Tijuana or for that matter Maine and Eastern Canada. In fact if language is the determining factor most of Texas all the Way to San Francisco should be a part of Mexico. Maine and a huge swatch of French Canada should be it's own Country and large portions of the great plains should be varying countries of indigenous peoples. Alaska would be half Canadian, half Russian, Hawaii would be it's own thing, same for Puerto Rico and the USVI, etc.

Sorry Earl but I'd say your argument only works for Europe and parts of Asia, everywhere else has too much artificiality in their borders due to colonialism and conquest
But look at the Native American tribes. Any map of Indian nations will show “countries” all over North America.


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