Was Vince Dooley as great as UGA fans make him out to be?

Padreruf

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A good friend was a DT for UGA back in the early 80's. I asked him about Dooley and he said that he played for his position coach...then added that he heard the same pre-game speech 10+x a year for 4 years. Had little or nothing good to say about him....and he rarely criticized anyone.
 

Pilot172000

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Being devil's advocate here, but in a way doesn't getting Herschel Walker to play for UGA make him a great coach? Part of coaching is recruiting. Also, any coach with 200 wins anywhere is a legend in his own right.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Being devil's advocate here, but in a way doesn't getting Herschel Walker to play for UGA make him a great coach? Part of coaching is recruiting. Also, any coach with 200 wins anywhere is a legend in his own right.
All he had to do was drag the right amount of money through Wrightsville.

And......in 25 years he had one super phenom.

(Might want to check out that 1980 schedule, too.......it was made at the bakery. But beat Notre Dame and all is forgiven).
 

CoachInWaiting

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I suppose he will continue to get better and better in the minds of Georgia fans until someone comes along to overshadow him. I grew up with Dooley as the UGA head man and always respected him as being a good coach. Not on par with Coach Bryant, but a good coach for Georgia. In those days, it was more common, or seemed to be, that coaches where hired for the long haul. They didn't often get fired, they coached until they retired or decided to take a different job. Looking strictly at the records, Richt was the better coach (IMO) and coached at a time when success was harder to come by.
 

BamaMoon

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Vince Dooley was a good, not great football coach. His teams were always competitive, but in those days mid 1960's until his retirement, Alabama and Tennessee were the best programs in the SEC. I have to agree with those who have said that Herschel Walker made Dooley's career better than it actually was. Walker was, IMO, the greatest RB back in the modern era of college football. Without Walker UGA has no NCs. When you consider the success UGA has enjoyed since Dooley's retirement, Marc Richt is probably the better coach, even though his career was one of underachievement.
Slightly off topic, but I just couldn't help but think how one great player can define a program or coach. It's funny to consider, but in alot of ways Hershel did that for Dooley and it was his path to that long ago NC from the early 80's.

And then there's Bo Jackson at Auburn (no NCs but he was a program maker) and then of course there's sCam Newton. I still get mad when I think about him and how they bought their one and only NC with him (the one in '57 was when they were still API).

Ironically, CNS has won muiltiple NCs without this type of dominant player, up to this point (although Tua may change that :smile:). It shows his real coaching acumen and ability to evaluate talent and build a team and dynasty).

Only an Auburn fan would include them in the above. Auburn was never rebuilding during the vast majority of Dooley’s UGA tenure. Other than a mini-run in the early 70s, they only really became relevant on the national stage in 1982 at best...


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Funny, my first thougt in reading the OP was "Here's an Auburn fan trying to make points to make the Barn look more relevant than they really are."
 

selmaborntidefan

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Only an Auburn fan would include them in the above. Auburn was never rebuilding during the vast majority of Dooley’s UGA tenure. Other than a mini-run in the early 70s, they only really became relevant on the national stage in 1982 at best...


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Georgia ranks 14th with a .651.
Auburn ranks 20th with a .630.

Auburn is 36-45-1 against us.
Georgia is 25-39-4.

Georgia has played 14 fewer games against Alabama.

If we'd played historically, they're probably 2-12 against us, which lowers them to .645.

The two schools might have more in common than some care to admit.

By the same token.....only if we accept the idea that Auburn was in rebuilding almost from the day Bryant showed up until the day he left does this claim make any sense at all.
 

crimsonaudio

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I tend to think that Spurrier was a better coach than Dooley even though Dooley had more SEC titles.
They both had six SEC titles, correct?

Dooley: 1966, 1968, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1982 (over a span of 19 seasons)
Spurrier: 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000 (over a span of 10 seasons)
 
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uafan4life

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They both had sex SEC titles, correct?

Dooley: 1966, 1968, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1982 (over a span of 19 seasons)
Spurrier: 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000 (over a span of 10 seasons)
I'm confused. Though, to be fair, I suppose winning an SEC Championship is pretty sexy. :biggrin2:
 

deliveryman35

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I always respected Dooley but never viewed him as an elite coach despite his longevity. It is interesting to note though that he was well thought of enough as a young coach that he interviewed for and was considered for the Oklahoma job when it came open in the mid ‘60’s.
 

PA Tide Fan

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They both had sex SEC titles, correct?

Dooley: 1966, 1968, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1982 (over a span of 19 seasons)
Spurrier: 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000 (over a span of 10 seasons)
You're right crimsonaudio. What happened was that since I was looking at the coaching records of Dooley, Spurrier and Dye I got Spurrier's SEC title number mixed up with Dye's SEC title number and mistakenly thought that Spurrier only had 4 SEC titles but it was actually Dye that had only 4. You're right that both Dooley and Spurrier had 6. Now that you brought this to my attention it convinces me even more that Spurrier was a better SEC coach than Dooley.
 

BamaInBham

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Georgia ranks 14th with a .651.
Auburn ranks 20th with a .630.

Auburn is 36-45-1 against us.
Georgia is 25-39-4.

Georgia has played 14 fewer games against Alabama.

If we'd played historically, they're probably 2-12 against us, which lowers them to .645.

The two schools might have more in common than some care to admit.

By the same token.....only if we accept the idea that Auburn was in rebuilding almost from the day Bryant showed up until the day he left does this claim make any sense at all.
But Auburn did not play Alabama from 1907-1947 when Bama had the 2nd best winning % in the nation behind ND - AU was 73rd, UGA 26th. UGA played Bama 28 times from 07-47. Bama would have likely gone something like 30-11 or better vs AU during that period. That's why AU's record vs Bama looks good vs other SEC programs. Also, the fact that AU was 7-4-1 before 1907. From 1923-47 Bama was 2nd at 81%, AU 121st at 49%, UGA 21st at 67%. Also, UGA only played Bama 3 times during the crippled years of 97-07, AU 11 times. To offset those things a little, UGA only played Bama 12 times during the Bryant years, and 5 times during the Saban years - AU 25 and 11. All of these things greatly distort the comparison between the 2 programs vs Alabama. In summary, IMO, it is very difficult, if even possible, to compare AU and UGA based on their records vs Alabama. AU's record especially is very distorted.

AU has been rebuilding or retooling since Saban arrived. Fired 2 coaches because of him and overpaid another. All in 11 years. If they had not caught a couple of fortunate breaks vs Alabama they would likely be on their 4th coach. If LSU had gotten a play off a moment earlier in 16 CGM may be gone. That's how fragile they've become.

(If they had played from 07-47, the Bama record vs AU would likely be 75-46-1. If 97-07 were normal it would be 79-42-1. Gumping hard today :smile:.)
 

selmaborntidefan

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A good friend was a DT for UGA back in the early 80's. I asked him about Dooley and he said that he played for his position coach...then added that he heard the same pre-game speech 10+x a year for 4 years. Had little or nothing good to say about him....and he rarely criticized anyone.
Y'all are gonna be in for a shock later this week when Coach Bryant is quoted in my 1978 write-up saying he no longer coached the team because the game had passed him by; instead, the assistant coaches did the actual coaching, and he did...... a little....
 

Padreruf

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Y'all are gonna be in for a shock later this week when Coach Bryant is quoted in my 1978 write-up saying he no longer coached the team because the game had passed him by; instead, the assistant coaches did the actual coaching, and he did...... a little....
Those around knew this...what he did was come up with and/or review the game plan...then he let the coaches implement it. Even in his last couple of years he still could tweak the plan for advantage, particularly in the game. Mal Moore had an interesting anecdote about this...you can find it on Youtube.
 

selmaborntidefan

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But Auburn did not play Alabama from 1907-1947 when Bama had the 2nd best winning % in the nation behind ND - AU was 73rd, UGA 26th. UGA played Bama 28 times from 07-47. Bama would have likely gone something like 30-11 or better vs AU during that period. That's why AU's record vs Bama looks good vs other SEC programs. Also, the fact that AU was 7-4-1 before 1907. From 1923-47 Bama was 2nd at 81%, AU 121st at 49%, UGA 21st at 67%. Also, UGA only played Bama 3 times during the crippled years of 97-07, AU 11 times. To offset those things a little, UGA only played Bama 12 times during the Bryant years, and 5 times during the Saban years - AU 25 and 11. All of these things greatly distort the comparison between the 2 programs vs Alabama. In summary, IMO, it is very difficult, if even possible, to compare AU and UGA based on their records vs Alabama. AU's record especially is very distorted.
I don't dispute the basic point.

However - while the claim Auburn lost to Dooley because they were rebuilding is an utter farce, the reality is that Auburn and Georgia aren't really all that far apart, which has to drive the UGA goons crazy.

They hold a two-win edge in the head-to-head. That's nothing when you've played over 100 times.

Both have two national titles. Georgia has them 13-9 in SEC titles, Auburn has 3 Heisman winners to Georgia's two.

Georgia is ahead of Auburn by about a car length.

AU has been rebuilding or retooling since Saban arrived. Fired 2 coaches because of him and overpaid another. All in 11 years. If they had not caught a couple of fortunate breaks vs Alabama they would likely be on their 4th coach. If LSU had gotten a play off a moment earlier in 16 CGM may be gone. That's how fragile they've become.

(If they had played from 07-47, the Bama record vs AU would likely be 75-46-1. If 97-07 were normal it would be 79-42-1. Gumping hard today :smile:.)
Again, all I did was take a look at if the meetings were even, but your point is fair.

If we're ranking NCAA football coaches by tiers, I think Dooley is probably in the bottom of tier three or top of tier four.
He was like Don "I Have No Damn Business in the Hall of Fame" Drysdale. He was a GOOD coach, but he was nowhere close to a great one.

I'd rank Pat Dye as a better head coach than Vince Dooley in the overall picture.
 

ALA2262

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They both had six SEC titles, correct?

Dooley: 1966, 1968, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1982 (over a span of 19 seasons)
Spurrier: 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000 (over a span of 10 seasons)
1966 is such a farce. UGA didn't even play the minimum of 6 conference games. Their game with UNC was "appointed" as a conference game. Why wasn't it Miami? That was Tulane's "appointed" game in 1964!

*APPOINTED CONFERENCE GAMES

While the SEC rule requiring six football games with member schools was in effect, 16 games with outside schools were appointed to serve as conference games to avoid aviolation for the members. The won-lost records of these games are included in the annual conference standings, but the results are not included in the conference point totals.
1954 – Ole Miss vs. Arkansas, 0-6
1958 – Ole Miss vs. Houston, 56-7
1964 – Tulane vs. Miami, 0-21
1965 – Georgia vs. Clemson, 23-9 Tennessee vs. S. Carolina, 24-3
1966 – Florida vs. Tulane, 31-10 Georgia vs. N. Carolina, 28-3 LSU vs. Tulane, 21-7 Tennessee vs. S. Carolina, 29-17 Vanderbilt vs. Tulane, 12-13
1967 – Georgia vs. Clemson, 24-17 Vanderbilt vs. Tulane, 14-27
1968 – Florida vs. Tulane, 24-3 LSU vs. TCU, 10-7 LSU vs. Tulane, 34-10 Miss. State vs. Tex. Tech, 28-28 Vanderbilt vs. Tulane, 21-7


Pg. 130- SEC Media Guide
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2014/0714/2014 SEC Football Media Guide PDF.pdf
 

selmaborntidefan

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UGA fans always talk about Vince Dooley being better than equal than just about everybody but CPB and CNS, and it usually is regarded in the media to be true. There was an article about Dooley lately that sparked this conversation, but I was talking to some people at church about it. One older Auburn fan said "Dooley was only great when he had Herschel, and was only good when Alabama, Tennessee, and Auburn were rebuilding. But if all things being considered, Marc Richt was a better coach than 10 Vince Dooleys." Basically he said "when he was without herschell he had a 2-2-1 record vs Barfield, and only beat Dye once without Walker. A mediocre coach that got lucky with a once in a lifetime player" Statistically it seems to be true that his bump in wins are between 1980-85, but Ive been told he was one of those coaches better than his overall records.

I wasn't alive for Dooley, but Ive always heard Dooley was a legendary coach. So was he in fact a mediocre coach that got lucky with one player, or was he as good as UGA fans believe
I'm at work, but I'll do what I can. May have to ditch it mid thought.

1) Dooley's Legendary Status
Dooley's status as "legend" (a status conferred on him by former Georgia graduate sportswriter turned comedian Lewis Grizzard - among others) really owes itself to the accident of timing more than anything else. Dooley coached in an era where the turnover rate among college football coaches was substantially smaller than today - a fact that enabled coaches that never would survive a 9-3 down season (looking right at Frank Solich) in the modern era keeping their jobs for long periods of time. Dooley was the last of an era of coaches that - like baseball stadiums are iconic symbols of their cities (even Fenway Pahk) - were symbols of their schools, when you thought of the school, you thought of the coach. Well, he was the last in the SEC - Paterno was likely the last ever (and note he began his career just two years after Dooley did, so it was in the same time frame).

2) The Luck of the Bulldog

It's probably no accident that Dooley's career success coincides perfectly with Georgia Tech leaving the SEC to become and Independent....that and Bobby Dodd retiring. All one has to do is look at the timeline.

Dodd became the head coach at Tech in 1945. He had a losing season that first year as coach and lost to UGA in 1946 while finishing 11th (UGA was #3).

And then Dodd beat UGA nine times in the next 10 years. He lost four in a row (three of them close) and then won 3 blowouts in a row. In other words, Dodd had an overall record of 12-7 prior to (wait for it).......Georgia Tech leaving the SEC at the end of the 1963 season.

Dooley is hired for the 1964 season. He gets the recruiting advantages of the bigger name, "they're not in the SEC anymore," and the easier academic standards.

Of course, it's easy to read too much into this, too. FSU's biggest success came - not so coincidentally - when Miami was on probation. Mississippi State's rise to the top of the SEC coincided with Alabama's probation that followed quickly on the heels of Auburn's PLUS Ole Miss got popped in 1994 (and gee, State gets good in 1996).

So I don't want to disparage Dooley too much for that. All kinds of guys inherit good teams but not every one of them can win a Super Bowl like George Siefert did. And to make it even better......right as he gets Herschel Walker, Tech gets hit with a major probation and hires Bill Curry (I'll let the reader determine which was the bigger obstacle for Tech).

3) Luck of the Bulldogs 2

As a result of the "fix" allegations in the 1962 Alabama-Georgia game, the two schools agreed on a cooling off period and went to a rotational schedule rather than a yearly meeting. It was fortuitous for Georgia but awful for Ole Miss, who Alabama hadn't played since WW2 but was now on the Tide schedule almost every year. It's not a coincidence that Ole Miss went from national title contender to also-ran the moment they faced Alabama all but four years between 1964 and 1983. Ole Miss' bad fortune was Georgia's good, though to be fair, the Rebs' refusal to integrate played as large a role in their demise.

So Dooley gets 2-8 Miss St in 1966 instead of Alabama and shares an SEC title and 1-9 Miss St in 1967 (and they go 7-4). In 1968, he draws Ole Miss......the week after the Rebs beat Alabama. Dooley goes 3-0 in those games before the Dawgs collapse to 5-5-1 in 1969.

Dooley goes from 1966-1971 and never faces Alabama. Oh and wins two SEC titles at the time.


Again, we have to be careful not to read to much into the background. Dooley still won those games, and Georgia prior to 1980 was more than content with only contending every 3-4 years with a senior heavy team. It was only after they won that national title that they got such insane delusions of grandeur and where their program ranked. The same thing happened to Clemson in 1981, giving rise to what Stewart Mandel has long called, "Ole Miss-Clemson Syndrome," defined as the delusion that your program's singular best year is an accurate barometer of where you are viewed at all times.

4) Dooley oversaw integration.

While this, too, was an accident of timing, the fact remains he did an admirable job of it. Johnny Vaught resisted black athletes (Ole Miss was the last SEC team to have a black player - in 1972) and overstayed his competence to the point Ole Miss has never come close to recovering from the damage he did.



He was neither a buffoon nor a legend.....although Dooley standing on the sidelines looked like a cross between Terry Bowden and Gus Malzahn on Prozac. He would be out there in those dress clothes but wearing that goofy looking Georgia hat, hands pressed on knees like he was on the field himself. Then he would do the sort of fist shake after a big play but with less enthusiasm than Gus.
 

Bubbaloo

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Coach Dooley was a "good" coach that won with defense(which I love BTW). He will always be remembered by me as the coach that done the leastest with the mostest. :)
 

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