Student Debt Crisis

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,482
13,331
287
Hooterville, Vir.
We're not really in disagreement. My issue was the knee-jerk focus on blaming students. What about the Boomers who told every generation that followed that the only path to success lie through a college degree? What about the politicians who reduced school funding while simultaneously adding more requirements to receive federal/state funding? What about the for-profit schools that specialize in bankrupting their graduates, and the loan-sharks holding public office that encourage this behavior?

It's easy to blame the player rather than recognize that the game is rigged against them, but I don't think that's terribly helpful. It sidesteps the reality that our education system is broken at its core, and it avoids the more difficult conversation of how we begin to fix it. I agree that student debt is a bubble, but I don't think pointing fingers at the victims will correct it.
I do not know that I would use the word "victims." Yes, others have caused the cost of a college education to go up (and that is not the students' fault). Yes, others have encouraged high school grads to go to college without sufficient regard to the cost of going to college (and that is not the students' fault). If I was to urge you to drop a bowling ball on your toe, who's to blame if you actually do it? Yes, I have done something irresponsible (literaly and figuratively), but you are both decider and the one suffering from the decision. Who's to blame? You are ultimately.

I guess I place greater faith in a person's ability to make decisions and fix responsibility on those who decide.

If a prospective student about to take out a $10,000 student loan were to ask the banker how much the principal would be in four years, what the monthly payments will be, and compare that to the average salary of a recent graduate with a degree in that field, the student might decline or she might accept, but at least it is her decision. If I sign a contract and the other party complies precisely with the terms of the contract, am I a victim?
 

CharminTide

Hall of Fame
Oct 23, 2005
7,319
2,032
187
If I [take out an educational loan] and the other party complies precisely with the terms of the contract, am I a victim?
If you'd been told all your life that there's no alternative to taking on educational debt, and if you're acting in good faith that the degree/certificate from a shady for-profit college will actually be worth the paper it's printed on, then I'd say you are partially victimized in that transaction. At the very least, you aren't being given the benefit of complete information.

I'm not trying to remove responsibility from students, and I agree that anyone signing a loan contract had better think ahead and have a plan for paying it back. But it seems like the solution y'all are suggesting (the royal "y'all," not specifically you TW) is that only doctors, lawyers, and kids of wealthy parents should go to college, and everyone else better be a plumber. I simply don't think that's a good long-term solution for our society, which is why I'm trying to expand the conversation.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,482
13,331
287
Hooterville, Vir.
If you'd been told all your life that there's no alternative to taking on educational debt, and if you're acting in good faith that the degree/certificate from a shady for-profit college will actually be worth the paper it's printed on, then I'd say you are partially victimized in that transaction. At the very least, you aren't being given the benefit of complete information.

I'm not trying to remove responsibility from students, and I agree that anyone signing a loan contract had better think ahead and have a plan for paying it back. But it seems like the solution y'all are suggesting (the royal "y'all," not specifically you TW) is that only doctors, lawyers, and kids of wealthy parents should go to college, and everyone else better be a plumber. I simply don't think that's a good long-term solution for our society, which is why I'm trying to expand the conversation.
On this we are in agreement. I wish guidance counselors, parents, loan officers would go the extra mile to lay things out for prospective students (how much will this cost, what are the likely benefits, etc.)

When I finished high school in Huntsville in 1981, I wanted to study Russian (I figured we were going to throw down with those a-holes and I wanted to be as efficient as possible at killing them). I could not afford to go out of state. Simple choice. I chose the $348/semester option with the greatest football coach ever (to date).
 

bama_wayne1

All-American
Jun 15, 2007
2,700
16
57
I think the cover needs to be removed from what tuition actually breaks down into. For example the scam surrounding textbooks. Professors galore that do not teach. I know research is important but if it is it should also be self supporting through grants. Colleges do not need to build resorts or water parks. There should be some type of standardization to make ALL courses transferable from school to school.
 

CaliforniaTide

All-American
Aug 9, 2006
3,618
14
57
Huntsville, AL
Students, and parents, need to be better educated of what the possible post-secondary pathways are. Alabama is starting to pour a lot more into career technical education now that they've begun bringing in large corporations for STEM and manufacturing jobs. A lot of those agreements hinged on the companies hiring locally, and those companies are agreeing to that stipulation but also asking for a better prepared workforce for the jobs that they're going to offer. In my electronics and robotics classes, I have students that will benefit from going to a community college, gaining industry-related credentials, and entering the workforce. I also have students that will benefit from going to a four-year university majoring in engineering or a STEM-related major. My school is a career technical center, meaning we only have the CTE programs, and the other high schools send their students for those program to our building. We are currently fighting the long-standing reputation that "trade school" is only for "those kids", and we're fighting the perception that the programs only benefit students who will not go to a university. I've also taught government and economics in Alabama in the last seven years, and I do know that any personal finance-related is not required according to the Alabama Course of Study. I always tried to mix in personal finance where it needed to be mentioned, even having a tax attorney come into the classroom to have students learn how to fill out a W-2 properly.

CTE is changing for the better in Alabama, but tremendous more resources are needed, particularly for the rural school systems, or school systems where there are no major industries or strong business communities for them to invest in. I've encouraged some of my students to look at the Alabama FAME program at Calhoun, which is a five-semester work-study program in advanced manufacturing. They work for a sponsoring company 40 hours/week making at least $13.55/hour, and go to Calhoun for their coursework. Once they complete the program, they'll walk into a job with their sponsoring company, or they'll take a job elsewhere in manufacturing. They essentially learn all of the technical skills to be in industrial maintenance, and some of those companies will even encourage talented workers to return to the university for a four-year degree and they'll pay for their education as well. I think Americans need to take a serious look at doing a gap year for students that are unsure of what they want to do. I try to give my students all of the possible information, and ideas on how to do life beyond high school. Do you want to commute from Moulton to Huntsville so you can buy a home and land? Or would you rather live in a city-environment like Huntsville or Birmingham? Do you want to move all the way across the country to go to school (like I did) for the experience, or do you want to stay close to home, or maybe you have to stay close to home? Finally, we're trying to teach students soft skills so that they can not only get a job, but stay gainfully employed as well.

Two impressive stories from the school I work at:

1) There are two girls that are in their senior years, and they're in the cosmetology program. By the end of the year, they'll have satisfied the requirements to sit for their cosmetology license. However, they want to go into nursing as a career. They chose cosmetology because they knew as sophomores in high school that they were not going to have any family help on paying for college. They also had heard the horror stories about student loans, so they are planning on working as cosmetologists, and going to community college to earn their nursing credentials so that they can ultimately get into nursing. For all of the benefits and easy life I had with my parents making all the money they did, I never had the mature planning out performed in my mind to see that plan for paying for college. It is incredibly mature IMO of them to create that plan for themselves, and if nursing falls through, they're already working in a field where they can charge their own rate and build their own name.

2) I had a promising student in electronics that was only planning on going in as an electrician after community college. But how he would approach problems and fix items in the classroom made me think that he should at least consider electrical engineering. So, as a class, we took a tour of a government contractor in Huntsville called Torch Technologies. Due to how the company arranged the groups in the tour, I wasn't with my student during the tour. At the end of the tour, the company's education liaison asked me about my student because one of the head engineers was impressed with him and the questions he was asking about the work they were doing. The head engineer wanted my student to apply for a paid internship and they were going to give him first dibs on the interview if he applied. So, my student applied, interviewed, and got the internship. He's starting his second year at UAH in electrical engineering, and absolutely loves Torch, and loves living the "big city" in Huntsville. Torch believes that if he stays on through their internship program, they plan on hiring him straight out of UAH when he completes his degree.

These kinds of opportunities exist for a lot of students, but we have to prepare them for those jobs. Like I said, it's slowly changing in Alabama, and hopefully it'll only get better.
 

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