Elizabeth Warren and Anti-Corruption

twofbyc

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"we got trump because we didn't support bernie"

purity pony nonsense.
Your opinion, man. Refuted by data (polls) you have repeatedly refused to accept because they said something you didn’t like.
You’re more like Trumpers in certain ways than you care to admit.


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twofbyc

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"we got trump because we didn't support bernie"

purity pony nonsense.
You got Trump because progressives weren’t swallowing the Hillary the DNC was illegitimately trying to shove down their throats. Call it whatever makes you feel better.


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92tide

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Your opinion, man. Refuted by data (polls) you have repeatedly refused to accept because they said something you didn’t like.
You’re more like Trumpers in certain ways than you care to admit.
polls are not elections. he had a chance to win and didn’t. you can project whatever you want onto that.
 
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CharminTide

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There is no need to step into a business that has been run a certain way for decades and tell them how to run it now.
It literally happens all the time, and this excuse could be used to sustain all kinds of terrible practices.

If you don't like workers getting their fingers sliced off by factory machines and ground into hot dog meat, go start your own; there is no need to step into a business that has been run a certain way for decades and tell them how to run it now.

If you don't like the poor refrigeration units in which we store our raw hamburger meat, go start your own; there is no need to step into a business that has been run a certain way for decades and tell them how to run it now.

etc. etc.
 

92tide

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You got Trump because progressives weren’t swallowing the Hillary the DNC was illegitimately trying to shove down their throats. Call it whatever makes you feel better.


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nobody was shoving anyone down anyone's throat, tons of progressives willingly and happily voted for hillary. the mere reality of being the party's favored/preferred candidate in a race is not ipso fact bad.
 

uafanataum

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It literally happens all the time, and this excuse could be used to sustain all kinds of terrible practices.

If you don't like workers getting their fingers sliced off by factory machines and ground into hot dog meat, go start your own; there is no need to step into a business that has been run a certain way for decades and tell them how to run it now.

If you don't like the poor refrigeration units in which we store our raw hamburger meat, go start your own; there is no need to step into a business that has been run a certain way for decades and tell them how to run it now.

etc. etc.
Health and worker safety concerns have been brought up and resolved for decades. This is not the same.
 

CharminTide

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Health and worker safety concerns have been brought up and resolved for decades. This is not the same.
Eh, one could easily argue that fair wages relate directly with worker health, but I'll grant you that they're different enough on face value.

The US actually had something similar to the EU's worker council back in the early 1900s. We called them "employee representation plans," "company unions," or somesuch moniker. Congress outlawed them in 1935 when it passed the National Labor Relations Act, and US labor bargaining shifted toward independent unions.

So back to my point: this happens all the time, and there is plenty of precedence for the type of organizational shift being proposed. Some of the strongest capitalist economies in the world use codetermination, so it's a bit silly to call this an anti-capitalist concept.
 

twofbyc

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nobody was shoving anyone down anyone's throat, tons of progressives willingly and happily voted for hillary. the mere reality of being the party's favored/preferred candidate in a race is not ipso fact bad.
Please. DNC admitted they picked their candidate and that they had every right to do so, regardless of what the primary voters wanted.
Denial is not a river in Africa. The fact you continue to deny what they admitted in court is different from accusing Trumpers of denying reality how, exactly?


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92tide

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Please. DNC admitted they picked their candidate and that they had every right to do so, regardless of what the primary voters wanted.
Denial is not a river in Africa. The fact you continue to deny what they admitted in court is different from accusing Trumpers of denying reality how, exactly?


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an "outsider" who is going to shake things up complaining that the "insiders" didn't treat him right ...

i never got any direction from the dnc forcing me to vote for hillary. if bernie or any other independent wants to be taken seriously by the democrats as a democratic canidate, he should have become one and worked with the party. he may have had a shot at winning more votes and potentially the primary. although he would have been destroyed in the general.
 

Its On A Slab

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an "outsider" who is going to shake things up complaining that the "insiders" didn't treat him right ...

i never got any direction from the dnc forcing me to vote for hillary. if bernie or any other independent wants to be taken seriously by the democrats as a democratic canidate, he should have become one and worked with the party. he may have had a shot at winning more votes and potentially the primary. although he would have been destroyed in the general.
Nebraska just did the right thing in getting rid of the caucus and going back to a primary.

Why? Because many people didn't understand the caucus process(hell, I live with an expat Argentine, and even I couldn't explain it to her nor her compatriots), the caucus system is rigged to benefit the loyalists of one candidate or another.....not the rank and file party members, who prefer to vote at the polls. Because most people don't understand caucus rules, etc, they stay home rather than go to the circus.

So to say that the primary system was rigged, and not take into account the woefully-undemocratic caucus system is curious to say the least.

I participated in the 2008 NE caucus and my take from it was an organized riot/chaos. People shouting down each other, almost bullying for one candidate or the other. That's not what I call a representative take on the electorate. (Mind you, my candidate..Obama....benefited from the caucus system.)
 

CharminTide

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Warren unveiled her universal child care plan yesterday: LINK

Basically creates a locally administered, federally funded network of day-cares and preschools, open to all children and bridging from birth to school entry age. For those families making 200% of the federal poverty level ($51k for a family of 4), participation is free. Above that, families pay some share of the cost based on their income, but the highest payment tier is capped at 7%. She argues that, currently, poor families pay 17% of their income on child care, and many are unable to fully participate in the workforce due to child care needs. The annual cost is estimated at $70 billion, and it would be funded entirely by the wealth tax she has already proposed (which is projected to raise 4x the needed amount for this program).
 

UAH

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Warren unveiled her universal child care plan yesterday: LINK

Basically creates a locally administered, federally funded network of day-cares and preschools, open to all children and bridging from birth to school entry age. For those families making 200% of the federal poverty level ($51k for a family of 4), participation is free. Above that, families pay some share of the cost based on their income, but the highest payment tier is capped at 7%. She argues that, currently, poor families pay 17% of their income on child care, and many are unable to fully participate in the workforce due to child care needs. The annual cost is estimated at $70 billion, and it would be funded entirely by the wealth tax she has already proposed (which is projected to raise 4x the needed amount for this program).
I have forever thought that conservative positions on child care to be completely inconsistent with their general opposition to welfare. Without child care support how does a single mother climb out of poverty. That issue existed for generations.

My concern with the proposal on top of the discussions of taxing the wealthy, universal medicare and free college tuition and other is the fact that Democrats do not currently have the political strength to accomplish much of this at all. It appears to lend itself to claims of socialism that has been utilized so effectively by Republicans to gain control of state houses, governorship's, Congress and the court system.

Will Democrats ever have the toughness to win some of these battles at the state level before presenting such far reaching schemes that position them to be dismissed at tax and spend socialist.
 

day-day

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Warren unveiled her universal child care plan yesterday: LINK

Basically creates a locally administered, federally funded network of day-cares and preschools, open to all children and bridging from birth to school entry age. For those families making 200% of the federal poverty level ($51k for a family of 4), participation is free. Above that, families pay some share of the cost based on their income, but the highest payment tier is capped at 7%. She argues that, currently, poor families pay 17% of their income on child care, and many are unable to fully participate in the workforce due to child care needs. The annual cost is estimated at $70 billion, and it would be funded entirely by the wealth tax she has already proposed (which is projected to raise 4x the needed amount for this program).
Seems like the money may come from other sources as well depending on whether or how this will impact the dependent care pre-tax flexible spending account and the child care tax credit for people falling in various income levels. There was a small mention of the tax credit but no explanation on whether these items would go away. I'm thinking some people in the middle income range may see their taxes go up and not see an advantage unless they put their children into a government controlled facility.

I see the positives but I also see more big government with unknown consequences.
 

CharminTide

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I have forever thought that conservative positions on child care to be completely inconsistent with their general opposition to welfare. Without child care support how does a single mother climb out of poverty. That issue existed for generations.

My concern with the proposal on top of the discussions of taxing the wealthy, universal medicare and free college tuition and other is the fact that Democrats do not currently have the political strength to accomplish much of this at all. It appears to lend itself to claims of socialism that has been utilized so effectively by Republicans to gain control of state houses, governorship's, Congress and the court system.

Will Democrats ever have the toughness to win some of these battles at the state level before presenting such far reaching schemes that position them to be dismissed at tax and spend socialist.
Pro-life Republicans have never actually cared about helping poor children after birth. They only care about children inasmuch as they can be used to whip votes, and that utility ends at the cervix. After that, infants can find their own bootstraps.

Democrats will need to prioritize. They can't do everything on the grand wishlist, but if they win enough Senate seats, they can certainly claim the political support to push through one or two items fairly easily, IMO. Political finance reform would be my #1, as every issue ultimately circles back to money and corruption. One reason I like Warren is that I think this would be her #1 priority as well.
 
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CharminTide

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Seems like the money may come from other sources as well depending on whether or how this will impact the dependent care pre-tax flexible spending account and the child care tax credit for people falling in various income levels. There was a small mention of the tax credit but no explanation on whether these items would go away. I'm thinking some people in the middle income range may see their taxes go up and not see an advantage unless they put their children into a government controlled facility.

I see the positives but I also see more big government with unknown consequences.
Like always, there remain a lot of questions. But frankly, investing in kids at an early age is probably the cheapest and best idea any country can have. Our current system sucks, frankly, so I think there's way more room upward than downward.

Why are so many responsible millennials not having kids? Because they're just too damn expensive. This isn't the 60's anymore. It takes a lot of effort and financial stability to afford rent/mortgage AND a child. That's a lot of certainty and security than many don't have until much later in life. Ultimately, it's not a good reflection on our society if the most educated among us are weighing the options and deciding that children simply aren't worth the financial burden. But that's exactly what's happening in my generation, and it's going to become a huge problem if we don't confront it.
 
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bama_wayne1

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Like always, there remain a lot of questions. But frankly, investing in kids at an early is probably the cheapest and best idea any country can have. Our current system sucks, frankly, so I think there's way more room upward than downward.

Why are so many responsible millennials not having kids? Because they're just too damn expensive. This isn't the 60's anymore. It takes a lot of effort and financial stability to afford rent/mortgage AND a child. That's a lot of certainty and security than many don't have until much later in life. Ultimately, it's not a good reflection on our society if the most educated among us are weighing the options and deciding that children simply aren't worth the financial burden. But that's exactly what's happening in my generation, and it's going to become a huge problem if we don't confront it.
I believe we should invest in our children. The difference in millenials handling of money and supporting a family is a problem. It is derived by a lot of different things like student debt, but also the fact that many parents have elevated their standard of living artificially during their young adult life. We that are now in our late 40s and beyond didn't grow up with cell phones and new cars. What we think of as "getting by" is much different today than in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. I still remember looking for ways to cut costs of child rearing. One of my sons asked me when he was about 22 why I always sat around the house sewing on my clothes when they were all teenagers. My answer was that it was their turn to have a little freedom and fun and mine to finance them. It was never done without sacrifice and it'll be up to the millenials to figure that out on their own.
 

CharminTide

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I believe we should invest in our children. The difference in millenials handling of money and supporting a family is a problem. It is derived by a lot of different things like student debt, but also the fact that many parents have elevated their standard of living artificially during their young adult life. We that are now in our late 40s and beyond didn't grow up with cell phones and new cars. What we think of as "getting by" is much different today than in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. I still remember looking for ways to cut costs of child rearing. One of my sons asked me when he was about 22 why I always sat around the house sewing on my clothes when they were all teenagers. My answer was that it was their turn to have a little freedom and fun and mine to finance them. It was never done without sacrifice and it'll be up to the millenials to figure that out on their own.
All generations have faced their own difficulties and sacrificed in their own ways. People aren't giving up on raising kids because of iPhones and avocado toast, and I'm not sure that shaking the finger of disapproval at an entire generation is very productive. I actually think that cutting back on owning homes and raising a family is the sacrifice my generation is being forced to make in order to cope. You're absolutely right that student debt is a crushing financial weight for many people in their 20s and 30s that prior generations have simply never experienced. When you're doing your monthly expenses and calculating 1k for housing, 1k for student loans, and 1k for child care, only one of those is optional. If you could simply cross out that child care expense without having to also sacrifice your ability to work, you'd see a lot more young people starting families.
 

cbi1972

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All generations have faced their own difficulties and sacrificed in their own ways. People aren't giving up on raising kids because of iPhones and avocado toast, and I'm not sure that shaking the finger of disapproval at an entire generation is very productive. I actually think that cutting back on owning homes and raising a family is the sacrifice my generation is being forced to make in order to cope. You're absolutely right that student debt is a crushing financial weight for many people in their 20s and 30s that prior generations have simply never experienced. When you're doing your monthly expenses and calculating 1k for housing, 1k for student loans, and 1k for child care, only one of those is optional. If you could simply cross out that child care expense without having to also sacrifice your ability to work, you'd see a lot more young people starting families.
I would like to cross out my major expenses, too. Just wish them away. But that isn't how it works. I'm not at all sure that transferring responsibility and insulating people from their decisions is something we want to normalize even further.

Also, I am interested in knowing which one of your three 1k expenses is optional. I am counting two optional expenses.
 

bama_wayne1

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All generations have faced their own difficulties and sacrificed in their own ways. People aren't giving up on raising kids because of iPhones and avocado toast, and I'm not sure that shaking the finger of disapproval at an entire generation is very productive. I actually think that cutting back on owning homes and raising a family is the sacrifice my generation is being forced to make in order to cope. You're absolutely right that student debt is a crushing financial weight for many people in their 20s and 30s that prior generations have simply never experienced. When you're doing your monthly expenses and calculating 1k for housing, 1k for student loans, and 1k for child care, only one of those is optional. If you could simply cross out that child care expense without having to also sacrifice your ability to work, you'd see a lot more young people starting families.
I wasn't shaking a finger at anyone. I was just pointing out that every generation has to find their way. I actually believe that young people today are fairly well equipped to figure it out. I think there will be a time when people have to do a cost/benefit analysis on their education expense as well. I've signed my name for the things I thought I needed over the years and had to tough it out and pay for it. The cost of education is artificially high in my opinion due to so many Professors on the payroll that don't teach. The way it has gone up in the last couple of decades is unreal. I hope all these things get worked out I do believe your generation will figure them out.
 

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