Abortion

Bazza · Sep 18, 2018

From CNN:
Abortion Fast FactsCNN Library
Updated 1:10 PM ET, Fri June 1, 2018

2014 Statistics:
2014 is the most recent year for which the CDC has released statistics. The reporting areas are the District of Columbia; New York City; and all 50 states.

652,639 abortions were reported in the CDC's 2014 study. The abortion rate decreased 2% compared to 2013. There were 12.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44.
91.5% of 2014 abortions were performed at the 13th week of gestation or earlier and 67% were performed at the eighth week or earlier. Among reporting areas that included medical (nonsurgical) abortion, 22.6% of all 2014 abortions were performed as early medical abortions.

At the linked webpage above, we are at about half the number of abortions than we were in 1980.

Due to improvement of birth control technology, I presume?

The number of abortions in the United States increased gradually from 1973, then peaked in 1990 and has been on the decline since then.

At any rate.....with the current Bret Cavanaugh hearings going on and all the buzz about Roe v Wade getting overturned, it got me to thinking about abortion itself.

Assuming that in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to have any abortions performed....I'm interested on your thoughts on how we can reduce the number of abortions performed each year.

I realize in some cases, a woman is raped...and that is something that cannot be addressed as preventable.

We have birth control methods and also planned parenthood type organizations which disseminate educational materials and provide counseling.

I assume sex education is still taught in schools.

What else can be done to further reduce the need for abortions?

Right now (according to 2014 data in the linked webpage) there were 12.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44.

Is that about as good as we can get?

jthomas666 · Sep 18, 2018

Bazza said:
I realize in some cases, a woman is raped...and that is something that cannot be addressed as preventable.
We have birth control methods and also planned parenthood type organizations which disseminate educational materials and provide counseling.
I assume sex education is still taught in schools.
What else can be done to further reduce the need for abortions?

In no particular order:

-- Fund and support Planned Parenthood instead of vilifying it and restricting funding.

-- Admit that pushing abstinence-only birth control is not effective; revise sex education courses to acknowledge same.

-- Do more to advocate alternatives such as adoption, particularly safe harbor laws.

But even with all these things, women should still have the right to choose.

AlexanderFan · Sep 18, 2018

jthomas666 said:
In no particular order:

-- Fund and support Planned Parenthood instead of vilifying it and restricting funding.

-- Admit that pushing abstinence-only birth control is not effective; revise sex education courses to acknowledge same.

-- Do more to advocate alternatives such as adoption, particularly safe harbor laws.

But even with all these things, women should still have the right to choose.

Here's the issue: just because the bar is tough to reach (abstinence before marriage) doesn't mean it should be lowered, especially with an issue as important as a child.

There will never be a cheaper nor more effective method of birth control than not having sex before you're ready for children. The possible outcome for unprotected sex is well known.

What's so wrong with actually taking responsibility in your own life?

Yes, killing a child over your irresponsible behavior is villany at it's purest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CharminTide · Sep 19, 2018

AlexanderFan said:
There will never be a cheaper nor more effective method of birth control than not having sex before you're ready for children.

Some people live in a fictional, idealized world where merely hoping people won't have sex is an effective means of preventing unwanted pregnancy. But the rest of us live in reality, where abstinence is a demonstrably ineffective strategy that has been proven time and time again.

There were also people who defended Shula's coaching from a decade ago, because Darby up the middle was a theoretically effective gameplan. But the rest of us are happy that we ultimately abandoned an approach that had utterly failed in real-world execution time and time again.

CharminTide · Sep 19, 2018

AlexanderFan said:
Yes, killing a child over your irresponsible behavior is villany at it's purest.

I'm curious which situations you think constitute murder:

1. Smothering a newborn infant with a pillow.
2. A woman having her normal period.
3. A man who masturbates outside sex.
4. A woman who unknowingly miscarries.
5. A woman who takes Plan B the morning after unprotected sex.
6. A couple that attempts and fails in vitro fertilization.
7. A woman who undergoes abortion at 10 weeks.
8. A woman who undergoes abortion at 20 weeks.
9. A woman who undergoes abortion at 30 weeks.
10. A woman who undergoes abortion due to fatal fetal anomalies.
11. A woman who undergoes abortion due to rape.
12. A woman who undergoes abortion due to life-threatening consequences of pregnancy.

techster79 · Sep 19, 2018

Abstinence is 100% effective. It also has the benefit of being STD free. What if a shotgun wedding was required with a baby? I think that’d cut down on promiscuous sex.

techster79 · Sep 19, 2018

CharminTide said:
I'm curious which situations you think constitute murder:

1. Smothering a newborn infant with a pillow.
2. A woman having her normal period.
3. A man who masturbates outside sex.
4. A woman who unknowingly miscarries.
5. A woman who takes Plan B the morning after unprotected sex.
6. A couple that attempts and fails in vitro fertilization.
7. A woman who undergoes abortion at 10 weeks.
8. A woman who undergoes abortion at 20 weeks.
9. A woman who undergoes abortion at 30 weeks.
10. A woman who undergoes abortion due to fatal fetal anomalies.
11. A woman who undergoes abortion due to rape.
12. A woman who undergoes abortion due to life-threatening consequences of pregnancy.

Life begins at conception, 5 could be murder. 10 and 12 are the only medically necessary type. This all comes down to common sense, don’t want a baby don’t have sex. Condoms break, birth control doesn’t work and everyone that has sex should be adult enough to deal with the consequences including the 18-26(thanks Obama [emoji23]) year variety.

CharminTide · Sep 19, 2018

techster79 said:
Life begins at conception, 5 could be murder. 10 and 12 are the only medically necessary type. This all comes down to common sense, don’t want a baby don’t have sex. Condoms break, birth control doesn’t work and everyone that has sex should be adult enough to deal with the consequences including the 18-26(thanks Obama [emoji23]) year variety.

When you claim you believe that life begins at "conception," I assume the biological event you're referencing is fertilization. If you believe this, then you must also believe that every menses a sexually active woman experiences represents a potential lost life -- even if you time sex perfectly with the ovulatory window, about half of fertilized eggs fail to implant and are lost. How do you grieve for these?

Similarly, IVF results in a multitude of fertilized eggs, most of which are permanently frozen. Many of these are implanted and lost, however, as IVF has a high failure rate. How do you think we should punish IVF practitioners and recipients?

I'm also somewhat baffled why you think #12 would make abortion permissible. If you believe the act to be murder, what criteria allows you to value the life of the mother over that of the fetus? You seem to be tacitly acknowledging that the fetus is less of a person than it's host.

Bazza · Sep 19, 2018

I agree that it would be impossible for everyone to practice abstinence. I have personal experience of how powerful the act of having sex is with someone you are attracted to.....it's quite a force.

Which leads us to birth control methods.

My thoughts are that birth control only works when it is implemented.

So, given the above statements are valid....where is the problem in getting more birth control in practical use?

It can't be money because surely this industry is large enough to practically fund itself, isn't it? If not, why?

Do we need more educational programs?

Thanks for all opinions.....

92tide · Sep 19, 2018

Bazza said:
I agree that it would be impossible for everyone to practice abstinence. I have personal experience of how powerful the act of having sex is with someone you are attracted to.....it's quite a force.

Which leads us to birth control methods.

My thoughts are that birth control only works when it is implemented.

So, given the above statements are valid....where is the problem in getting more birth control in practical use?

It can't be money because surely this industry is large enough to practically fund itself, isn't it? If not, why?

Do we need more educational programs?

Thanks for all opinions.....

to get started, you may want to do some research on the pushback against the ppaca from the hobby lobby folks and others. i would also suggest you look at all of the "pro-life" groups as well

CharminTide · Sep 19, 2018

Bazza said:
So, given the above statements are valid....where is the problem in getting more birth control in practical use?

This is the problem:

AlexanderFan said:
There will never be a cheaper nor more effective method of birth control than not having sex before you're ready for children.

techster79 said:
Abstinence is 100% effective.

If I had my way, condoms and IUDs would rain from the sky. The minimal cost of making these widely accessible pales in comparison to the societal cost of forcing women to bear unwanted children and/or making contraception difficult to attain.

Jon · Sep 19, 2018

Bazza said:
I agree that it would be impossible for everyone to practice abstinence. I have personal experience of how powerful the act of having sex is with someone you are attracted to.....it's quite a force.

Which leads us to birth control methods.

My thoughts are that birth control only works when it is implemented.

So, given the above statements are valid....where is the problem in getting more birth control in practical use?

It can't be money because surely this industry is large enough to practically fund itself, isn't it? If not, why?

Do we need more educational programs?

Thanks for all opinions.....

the problem is that the right wing of this country wants to ignore reality on this issue. Just like they do with the environment and many others. They want reality to bend to their worldview and have tried again and again with continued and totally predictable failure. See the abstinence responses in this very thread. It's been tried and failed and tried and failed and if they have their way tried and it will fail again.

Jthomas already gave the right answer. Educate, provide birth control and fund the hell out of organizations like Planned Parenthood that reach all levels of society with their care.

This doesn't have to be hard the right just needs to get their heads out of their (and others) butts

92tide · Sep 19, 2018

Jon said:
the problem is that the right wing of this country wants to ignore reality on this issue. Just like they do with the environment and many others. They want reality to bend to their worldview and have tried again and again with continued and totally predictable failure. See the abstinence responses in this very thread. It's been tried and failed and tried and failed and if they have their way tried and it will fail again.

Jthomas already gave the right answer. Educate, provide birth control and fund the hell out of organizations like Planned Parenthood that reach all levels of society with their care.

This doesn't have to be hard the right just needs to get their heads out of their (and others) butts

the lord only made women so that they could make babies and take care of them.

Bazza · Sep 19, 2018

Can't parents buy birth control products for their children themselves, without needing anyone else to do it?

And for those who are no longer living at home - why can't they buy their own birth control products?

To me, if you can afford to have a cell phone, you should be able to afford birth control products.

How much do condoms cost?

Here's one product I found for 89 cents for a 3 pack.

Trojan ultra ribbed lubricated latex condoms - 3 ct

chanson78 · Sep 19, 2018

CharminTide said:
I'm curious which situations you think constitute murder:
1. Smothering a newborn infant with a pillow.
2. A woman having her normal period.
3. A man who masturbates outside sex.
4. A woman who unknowingly miscarries.
5. A woman who takes Plan B the morning after unprotected sex.
6. A couple that attempts and fails in vitro fertilization.
7. A woman who undergoes abortion at 10 weeks.
8. A woman who undergoes abortion at 20 weeks.
9. A woman who undergoes abortion at 30 weeks.
10. A woman who undergoes abortion due to fatal fetal anomalies.
11. A woman who undergoes abortion due to rape.
12. A woman who undergoes abortion due to life-threatening consequences of pregnancy.

13. Is a rich person who can pay for an abortion either by finding "the right doctor" or flying the woman someone where it is still legal

You forgot one case. Everyone acts as if women/men haven't been getting rid of pregnancies since the beginning of time. When abortion was legalized it provided a relatively safe, inexpensive manner accessible to all women. The people railing to get rid of/curtail abortion rarely realize that the people who can afford one will still be able to get one. They also forget that if it is illegal/curtailed it isn't going to stop poor people who really want one from getting one, often at great harm to their own life.

CharminTide · Sep 19, 2018

Bazza said:
Can't parents buy birth control products for their children themselves, without needing anyone else to do it?

Sure. But why would parents buy birth control when

AlexanderFan said:
There will never be a cheaper nor more effective method of birth control than not having sex before you're ready for children.

techster79 said:
Abstinence is 100% effective.

I knew a guy in college whose father was a very intelligent, highly rational engineer. However, he refused to buy his college-age daughter birth control or allow her to receive the Gardasil vaccine, because in his mind, doing so would "condone" premarital sex. And since she shouldn't be having sex, she shouldn't need either.

Even smart people can be morons.

Bazza · Sep 19, 2018

I do some landscape work for a local church and at some point will ask the pastor there about this and get his take.

First question I will ask is if someone walks in and asks where they can get help for birth control and/or abortion, what help/info are they told/provided.

I'll post what I find out.

chanson78 · Sep 19, 2018

Bazza said:
Can't parents buy birth control products for their children themselves, without needing anyone else to do it?

And for those who are no longer living at home - why can't they buy their own birth control products?

To me, if you can afford to have a cell phone, you should be able to afford birth control products.

How much do condoms cost?

Here's one product I found for 89 cents for a 3 pack.

Trojan ultra ribbed lubricated latex condoms - 3 ct

I could ask the same question regarding why insurance companies should cover Viagra. I am not the one having sex, so why should anything I put into my health insurance pool be utilized to pay for someone else?

Here is two products I found for much less than a Viagra subscription.

Karlash Jumbo Craft Sticks 6" Length Pack of 100 Pieces

Grizzly Brand Professional Grade Duct Tape, Silver Color Multi Pack, 11mil Thick (1.88 inch x 30 Yards), 48mm x 28m, 2-Pack Rolls

RollTide_HTTR · Sep 19, 2018

Serious question, what is more important to you who are anti abortion, reducing the number of abortions or abstinence?

MattinBama · Sep 19, 2018

chanson78 said:
They also forget that if it is illegal/curtailed it isn't going to stop poor people who really want one from getting one, often at great harm to their own life.

They’ll just think they’re murderers anyway & won’t care. Being “pro-life” stops as soon as a child is born for most of them.

Abortion

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