Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disaster (Oct 2018)

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TIDE-HSV

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Yeah, but it was a good deal, right?
Cost-wise, of course. The miles would have been wasted. She sent pix of the hotel. Somewhere along the way, they had remodeled and relocated the floors. A window with an arched trimmed top protruded up into her room from the room below. And it was a four star hotel, although a pretty cheap one, as compared worldwide...
 

NationalTitles18

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Another 737 Max 8 goes down.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html

For the second time in less than six months, a brand-new Boeing aircraft has crashed just minutes into a flight.All 157 people on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight from Addis Ababa that crashed on Sunday morning have died, the airline has confirmed.The tragedy follows the Lion Air flight that went down over the Java Sea in late October, killing all 189 people on board.
Too early to know what really happened, but it sure is suspicious. Boeing tried to save some dollars and cost itself many more dollars and over 300 lives from innocent people, or so it would appear.
 

2003TIDE

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Another 737 Max 8 goes down.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html

Too early to know what really happened, but it sure is suspicious. Boeing tried to save some dollars and cost itself many more dollars and over 300 lives from innocent people, or so it would appear.
Planes don't crash too often. Especially new planes. Especially 2 new planes of the same model, 6 months apart, by different airlines with good safety records. Not a good day to be Boeing.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Planes don't crash too often. Especially new planes. Especially 2 new planes of the same model, 6 months apart, by different airlines with good safety records. Not a good day to be Boeing.
Not 737, but a client of mine who lives in NZ and works for Honeywell told me that they no-bid the Dreamliner, because they didn't feel the computerized control system could possibly be made reliable...
 

CharminTide

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Not a good day to be Boeing.
Seems like an understatement. Ethiopian Airlines is a member of the Star Alliance alongside Lufthansa and United, and they haven't had a crash in over 9 years. And then this:

[Ethiopian Airlines] Flight 302 took off in good weather, but its vertical speed became unstable right after takeoff, fluctuating wildly, according to data published by FlightRadar24 on Twitter. In the first three minutes of flight, the vertical speed varied from zero feet per minute per hour to 1,472 to minus 1,920 — unusual during ascent...

An investigation by Indonesian authorities determined that the Lion Air plane’s abrupt nose‐dive may have been caused by updated Boeing software that is meant to prevent a stall but that can send the plane into a fatal descent if the altitude and angle information being fed into the computer system is incorrect.

The change in the flight control system, which can override manual actions taken in the Max model, was not explained to pilots, according to some pilots’ unions.
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CharminTide

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Here's more detail: LINK

tl;dr Boeing modified the MAX 8 to be more fuel efficient and moved the engines in a way that makes a stall more likely under certain conditions. To offset this risk and minimize the cost of retraining pilots on a new system, they wrote a code that automatically pushes the nose down if a certain sensor detects a stall. Two sensors are present, but they decided that adding redundancy would increase system complexity and only one is ever active at a time. The FAA agreed that their modifications did not require additional training for pilots, and now these planes are suddenly nosediving into the ground due to faulty sensors triggering an automatic adjustment that pilots are not aware of.

This whole situation is an enormous clusterfrack, and these planes need to be immediately grounded.
 

NationalTitles18

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Boeing deserves a pummeling, as does the FAA. A streamlined process for approval of the few modifications of an existing model makes sense. Failing to train pilots of the differences because in normal flight it "feels" the same as the old version but can behave wildly differently is willful action that has caused the deaths of over 300. I'm so glad Boeing bought ForeFlight (the GA folks know what I mean).
 

2003TIDE

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Seems like an understatement. Ethiopian Airlines is a member of the Star Alliance alongside Lufthansa and United, and they haven't had a crash in over 9 years. And then this:



LINK
Hmmm... I read Boeing specifically sent out an emergency notification to customers after the first crash requesting they retrain the pilots on the system.
 

CharminTide

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FYI, from CA's link:

Several North American airlines also operate the aircraft and have said they are monitoring the investigation [rather than grounding the planes as some Asian airlines have done].

Southwest Airlines flies 34 of the aircraft and said it had been in contact with Boeing and was operating as normal. American Airlines and Air Canada each have 24 in their fleet.
 

CharminTide

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Hmmm... I read Boeing specifically sent out an emergency notification to customers after the first crash requesting they retrain the pilots on the system.
It's probably way worse for Boeing if the pilots were trained in how to overcome the system but were unable to do so in time. From this twitter thread, it looks like the plane was only a few hundred feet above the ground when things started to go wrong.
 

CrimsonNagus

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If I had an upcoming fight, I'd call the airline and ask if my flight was on this same plane. If so, I'd ask for a different flight or cancel. No way will I ever step foot on a 737 Max 8. Getting somewhere fast is not worth rolling the dice on my life.

Boeing executives should be charged with 300 counts of manslaughter. Saving a few $$ is worth a life, they need to pay with jail time IMO. Someone at the FAA as well, whoever agreed with Boeing that retraining wasn't needed.

Also, from the quote above, if a plane crashes from Southwest, AA or Air Canada because they chose not to ground the planes, then someone should go to jail from those companies as well. I'm sick of rich executives playing with peoples lives just to increase their bonus.


That's my knee jerk reaction. IMO, it is ridiculous that SW, AA and Air Canada are not grounding these planes. FAA needs to step in and ground them anyway. (assuming they can?)
 
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crimsonaudio

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The cynical investor in me is looking to see Boeing stock get to $325, and put in a hard buy.

They are too involved in space, military, govt contracts and they aren't going anywhere.
Aye - it's no different than Nike last year - wait for the drop and get it before it climbs again. Boeing stock is almost a certain guarantee.
 

TIDE-HSV

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It's probably way worse for Boeing if the pilots were trained in how to overcome the system but were unable to do so in time. From this twitter thread, it looks like the plane was only a few hundred feet above the ground when things started to go wrong.
My money is not on untrained pilots. My money is on faulty sensors. Every time the pilots try to pull out of the dive, the sensors send them back into it. I can't imagine the terror of the pilots when the planes overrule them...
 

TIDE-HSV

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My money is not on untrained pilots. My money is on faulty sensors. Every time the pilots try to pull out of the dive, the sensors send them back into it. I can't imagine the terror of the pilots when the planes overrule them...
The alternative would be to have the plane plant you in the ground...
 

Elefantman

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My money is not on untrained pilots. My money is on faulty sensors. Every time the pilots try to pull out of the dive, the sensors send them back into it. I can't imagine the terror of the pilots when the planes overrule them...
I could be wrong but my understanding the system works on just one angle of attack (AOA) sensor. This system should be using three sensors so if one acts up, the other two will override it.
 
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