Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disaster - Page 4
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  1. #40
    BamaNation All-American Elefantman's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    My money is not on untrained pilots. My money is on faulty sensors. Every time the pilots try to pull out of the dive, the sensors send them back into it. I can't imagine the terror of the pilots when the planes overrule them...
    I could be wrong but my understanding the system works on just one angle of attack (AOA) sensor. This system should be using three sensors so if one acts up, the other two will override it.

  2. #41
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles17 View Post
    Looks like it did just that. They need to be grounded until the issues are worked out.
    Yes, it looks like damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you let the plane try to "cure" the faux stall, you end up in the ground. If you fight it, you create another faux stall...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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  3. #42
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Elefantman View Post
    I could be wrong but my understanding the system works on just one angle of attack (AOA) sensor. This system should be using three sensors so if one acts up, the other two will override it.
    Lord, Boeing better be glad for the limitation on liability on international flights and glad it didn't happen in the US. I said above that one prime sensor vendor no-bid the Dreamliner because of corner-cutting. I'd forgotten, but another friend/client, now retired from Boeing, who got pulled into commuting from HSV to Seattle to finish the Dreamliner confirmed the chaos at the end. He walked into, I think, the Hilton, to be greeted by a chorus of employees serenading him for being the worldwide point winner for Hilton Honors points...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  4. #43
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Elefantman View Post
    I could be wrong but my understanding the system works on just one angle of attack (AOA) sensor. This system should be using three sensors so if one acts up, the other two will override it.
    In a multi-million dollar plane they cut corners to save money with systems, testing (apparently), and pilot training (this saved the airlines money and made the plane more lucrative/less costly).

    The FAA put a rubber stamp on it. I appreciate that the FAA has a reputation for being too cumbersome and costly and they have made efforts to alleviate the burden they cause, but there's a balance to be had - particularly with commercial aviation and it crossed the line when Boeing said pilots would not need to be retrained on a plane that can behave very differently in some apparently common circumstances. This solution did not pass the smell test. Not even close.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  5. #44
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    For that matter could they not program it to sense altitude and terrain and NOT fly the thing into the ground?
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  6. #45
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    A good read from a pilot perspective.

    https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/...-trust-pilots/

    What the much ballyhooed system in the 737 MAX does is sense an increasing AOA when the pilot is hand flying the airplane. When the AOA reaches a point without enough stall margin, the system adds some nose-down pitch trim. That pitches the nose down and gives the pilot the stick force to know that he is pulling too close to the stall margin.This concept of adding artificial feel using the pitch trim has been around for years. It has been used to add stick force at high speed cruise where Mach effects can alter stick force as well as at higher AOA where stall margins must be maintained.
    What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.
    What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.
    The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition.
    If you fly an airplane with an electric pitch trim system, you are flying under this certification concept. A pitch trim system running away can obviously fly the airplane into a dangerous condition, particularly when the autopilot is engaged which masks the trim runaway for some time.
    Though the pitch system in the MAX is somewhat new, the pilot actions after a failure are exactly the same as would be for a runaway trim in any 737 built since the 1960s. As pilots we really don’t need to know why the trim is running away, but we must know, and practice, how to disable it.
    The problem for Boeing, and maybe eventually all airplane designers, is that FBW avoids these issues. FBW removes the pilot as a critical part of the system and relies on multiple computers to handle failures.
    Boeing is now faced with the difficult task of explaining to the media why pilots must know how to intervene after a system failure. And also to explain that airplanes have been built and certified this way for many decades. Pilots have been the last line of defense when things go wrong.
    What makes that such a tall order is that FBW airplanes – which include all the recent Airbus fleet, and the 777 and 787 from Boeing – don’t rely on the pilots to handle flight control system failures. FBW uses at least a triple redundant computer control system to interpret the inputs of the cockpit controls by pilots into movement of the airplane flight controls, including the trim. If part of the FBW system fails, the computer identifies the faulty elements and flies on without the human pilots needing to know how to disable the failed system.
    I understand the point, but I'll reiterate that Boeing intentionally avoided having pilots train on this new system.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  7. #46
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    NPR had an former FAA safety inspector on this AM and he said that the only thing that's needed was a simply $200 software mod which notifies the pilot when the angle correction is active and it could be done worldwide in a "few weeks." He went on to say he wouldn't put his grandchildren on a Max 8 right now but that he would himself, for a business trip or the like, an attitude I find puzzling...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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  8. #47
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bazza's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    NPR had an former FAA safety inspector on this AM and he said that the only thing that's needed was a simply $200 software mod which notifies the pilot when the angle correction is active and it could be done worldwide in a "few weeks." He went on to say he wouldn't put his grandchildren on a Max 8 right now but that he would himself, for a business trip or the like, an attitude I find puzzling...
    Saw the same interview.

    In essence, he was saying he wouldn't risk someone else's life. But felt he was willing to take the risk himself.

    I got what he was saying. There is a risk at this point - but not one so large he would disrupt his own plans.

  9. #48
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Chukker Veteran's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    I'd forgotten, but another friend/client, now retired from Boeing, who got pulled into commuting from HSV to Seattle to finish the Dreamliner confirmed the chaos at the end..
    I can't help but wonder if we have the same friend, Bill B. Bill did the same thing if it's not the same guy.

  10. #49
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    this dude missed the flight by two minutes.

    A Passenger Missed the Fatal Ethiopian Airlines Flight by 2 Minutes

    Antonis Mavropoulos did everything he could to catch his connection, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302: He didn’t bring a suitcase. He was the first passenger off his plane. And when he got to the airport in Ethiopia, he ran.

    He didn’t make it. A few hours later, he learned that what he thought was his misfortune was, in fact, the kind of spectacular good luck that can make you spend the rest of your life wondering about fate and chance.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  11. #50
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukker Veteran View Post
    I can't help but wonder if we have the same friend, Bill B. Bill did the same thing if it's not the same guy.
    No, wrong initials. However, that's at least two...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  12. #51
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
    Saw the same interview.

    In essence, he was saying he wouldn't risk someone else's life. But felt he was willing to take the risk himself.

    I got what he was saying. There is a risk at this point - but not one so large he would disrupt his own plans.
    Oh, I see. I just don't agree with the thinking. If the risk were large enough that I wouldn't want to expose my grandchildren, then it would be too large for me to expose myself. There's just no huge gap there for me...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  13. #52
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bazza's Avatar
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    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Oh, I see. I just don't agree with the thinking. If the risk were large enough that I wouldn't want to expose my grandchildren, then it would be too large for me to expose myself. There's just no huge gap there for me...
    Oh yeah....I agree with your position more than his, trust me.

    His position more than likely is 'biased' due to his background with aviation - and in particular the FAA.

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