Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disaster - Page 7
Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 79 to 91 of 155
  1. #79
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida
    Posts
    20,049

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Its On A Slab View Post
    Yep. Reinforce the false narrative that "guv'ment doesn't work" by appointing incompetent ("Brownie, you're doin' a helluva job") people to important government posts. Then, saying, "See, I told you that government doesn't work."
    Eh. That may contribute a bit to the problem, but government incompetence is more fundamental than that. I've worked for the government for more than 10 years, including all eight years of the Obama administration. The way government spent money didn't improve during a D presidency. In fact, specific policies were implemented that made things worse. To paraphrase the purpose of every new policy related to government acquisitions: we will improve efficiency by adding more layers of bureaucracy.
    Bodhi


    Lily (age 6): Daddy, I know what I want to be when I grow up: an artist.
    Bodhi (internally groaning): Yeah? What kind of artist?
    Lily: A balloon animal artist!
    Bodhi (face palm)

  2. #80
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Jacksonville, Md USA
    Posts
    20,980

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Eh. That may contribute a bit to the problem, but government incompetence is more fundamental than that. I've worked for the government for more than 10 years, including all eight years of the Obama administration. The way government spent money didn't improve during a D presidency. In fact, specific policies were implemented that made things worse. To paraphrase the purpose of every new policy related to government acquisitions: we will improve efficiency by adding more layers of bureaucracy.
    Government incompetence is simply government employee incompetence. Its an extreme example of zero accountability coupled with the peter principle
    Last edited by Bamaro; March 14th, 2019 at 07:50 PM.

  3. #81
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida
    Posts
    20,049

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Government incompetence is simply government employee competence. Its an extreme example of zero accountability coupled with the peter principle
    Yes, but that's a symptom (a big symptom) of the government bureaucracy. It is virtually impossible to fire poor employees or properly reward good employees. So, much of the workforce is quite frankly not that impressive. But, also, acquisition regulations often run at cross purposes. Complying with the layers of bureaucratic rules takes months. The systems used are poorly constructed and/or grossly expensive and/or 25 years old. And the solutions always involving adding more inefficiency.
    Bodhi


    Lily (age 6): Daddy, I know what I want to be when I grow up: an artist.
    Bodhi (internally groaning): Yeah? What kind of artist?
    Lily: A balloon animal artist!
    Bodhi (face palm)

  4. #82

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    It's looking more and more like the Flight Data Recorder data matches the previous crash...

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/0...boeing-crashes
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  5. #83
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Jacksonville, Md USA
    Posts
    20,980

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    There is something on Smithsonian channel right now (Air Disasters) with an A330 eerily similar to the Max8


    Faulty data received by ADIRU causes a 9 degree pitch down of nose
    Bad line of code swaps altitude data with angle of attack data

    The line of code was fixed but original cause of invalid data was never found.

    The episode is called 'Free Fall' and is season 12, episode 10
    Last edited by Bamaro; March 18th, 2019 at 10:00 AM.

  6. #84
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Mountainous Northern California
    Posts
    12,779

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Boeing and the FAA really messed up, to say the least.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/

    Dennis Tajer, a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association at American Airlines, said his training on moving from the old 737 NG model cockpit to the new 737 MAX consisted of little more than a one-hour session on an iPad, with no simulator training.Minimizing MAX pilot transition training was an important cost saving for Boeing’s airline customers, a key selling point for the jet, which has racked up more than 5,000 orders.
    The company’s website pitched the jet to airlines with a promise that “as you build your 737 MAX fleet, millions of dollars will be saved because of its commonality with the Next-Generation 737.”
    In the aftermath of the crash, officials at the unions for both American and Southwest Airlines pilots criticized Boeing for providing no information about MCAS, or its possible malfunction, in the 737 MAX pilot manuals.
    An FAA safety engineer said the lack of prior information could have been crucial in the Lion Air crash.
    Boeing’s safety analysis of the system assumed that “the pilots would recognize what was happening as a runaway and cut off the switches,” said the engineer. “The assumptions in here are incorrect. The human factors were not properly evaluated.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  7. #85
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Mountainous Northern California
    Posts
    12,779

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Ruh roh...


    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/18/us-i...craft-wsj.html

    The Journal reported in an update to the article that a grand jury in Washington issued a broad subpoena one day after the Ethiopian Airlines crash to at least one person involved in the development of the Boeing 737 Max. The subpoena, which reportedly involves a prosecutor from the Justice Department, was said to seek relevant documents, such as emails and other messages.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  8. #86

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles17 View Post
    Good, let's hope this goes somewhere.

    I'm not one of these people who walks around suggesting all large corporations are evil, driven solely by profit, etc., but this story reeks of trying to save money and time at the risk of human life.

    A friend in the industry wrote this the other day:
    "They limited the changes to the design so it wouldn't have to go through extensive re-certification - raise the engines up and put them forward, because if you change the landing gear, it's too much change. But moving the engines that far forward will make it nearly impossible to fly, so they developed a program to make it work..."

    If this is the process / reasoning as to why this has happened, some folks belong in prison.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  9. #87
    BamaNation All-American CrimsonNagus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Montgomery, Alabama, United States
    Posts
    4,211

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Why would you design, or modify, a plane by "moving the engines" so far forward that it makes "it nearly impossible to fly"? That seems to go against the basic design requirements for a plane. Oh, but they developed software to "make it work". I'm no engineer but, I would think you would design a plane that is flight worthy without the need to install an app.

    Sounds like some engineers need jail time, as well as Boeing executives.



    CA, I am one of those people. I don't think all corporations are evil but, they are all driven by profits. Well, mostly market value and shareholders, who are driven by profits.

  10. #88

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonNagus View Post
    Why would you design, or modify, a plane by "moving the engines" so far forward that it makes "it nearly impossible to fly"? That seems to go against the basic design requirements for a plane. Oh, but they developed software to "make it work". I'm no engineer but, I would think you would design a plane that is flight worthy without the need to install an app.
    It all started in 2011 when they wanted to install new, more efficient engines to match they competing Airbus fuel burn - "the initial reduction was 10–12%; it was later enhanced to 14.5%: the fan was widened from 61 inches to 69.4 inches by raising the nose gear and placing the engine higher and forward, the split winglet added 1–1.5%, a relofted tail cone 1% more and electronically controlling the bleed air system improves efficiency."

    The plane was already in service, these were model upgrades to increase efficiency, but they didn't want to go through the long recertification process.

    It highlights how silly the system is - you move the landing gear (which would have if you made the gear larger) and you have to rectify - but if you change the engines and move how they are mounted, no lengthy recertification is required.

    Failures all over the place on this one, but sadly, this is how airplanes have gotten so safe now - massive loss of life causes enquiries, which lead to changes to all aspects of that system, and the planes are safer.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  11. #89
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Mountainous Northern California
    Posts
    12,779

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Investigation aid likely in regards to the limits of the MCAS which is far different than approved apparently.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  12. #90
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Mountainous Northern California
    Posts
    12,779

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Lunch was cut short today so I didn't have a chance to expound:

    Boeing was approved for MCAS to move the rear stabilizer 0.6 degrees total but in testing found that 2.5 degrees movement of the stabilizer was needed. The FAA did not know about this some say, but also did not know that after it was disengaged it could engage again and each time move it another 2.5 degrees. It only tilts a total of 5 degrees. IOW, in 2-4 engagements of the MCAS the trim could be set to full downward. It is basically a runaway trim but doesn't behave like the runaway trim that pilots are used to dealing with and so could go missed without training and knowledge - both of which Boeing deliberately avoided in the name of the almighty dollar. Interviewed persons in the FAA were not aware of the change is the limits of the MCAS or that once disengaged it would engage again to the point of full downward motion of the aircraft no matter how hard the pilots fought the system, which they didn't necessarily know existed in the first place.

    I hope that if wrongdoing occurred that people are held accountable for their actions.

    I saw a documentary - it may have been from down under - where about 7-8 years ago Boeing was covering up deviations from approved type in their manufacturing process and fired several employees over their whistleblowing efforts. So this may be a pattern of behavior by Boeing and the FAA since the FAA was also implicated.

    Thankfully the FAA has moved toward a compliance model instead of punishment and hs also finally allowed some innovation - mainly in GA - by making the process for approvals less prescriptive. These are good things and have allowed new and exciting things into the cockpit and elsewhere (Dynon avionics, new avionics from others like Garmen, getting rid of vacuum pumps and gyros that are prone to failure, less expensive ADS-B devices to improve compliance with new requirements, and so on). These are good things.

    But this deal with Boeing smells rotten.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  13. #91
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Huntsville, AL,USA
    Posts
    63,525

    Re: Indonesia plane crash: All 189 passengers presumed dead in latest aviation disast

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles17 View Post
    Lunch was cut short today so I didn't have a chance to expound:

    Boeing was approved for MCAS to move the rear stabilizer 0.6 degrees total but in testing found that 2.5 degrees movement of the stabilizer was needed. The FAA did not know about this some say, but also did not know that after it was disengaged it could engage again and each time move it another 2.5 degrees. It only tilts a total of 5 degrees. IOW, in 2-4 engagements of the MCAS the trim could be set to full downward. It is basically a runaway trim but doesn't behave like the runaway trim that pilots are used to dealing with and so could go missed without training and knowledge - both of which Boeing deliberately avoided in the name of the almighty dollar. Interviewed persons in the FAA were not aware of the change is the limits of the MCAS or that once disengaged it would engage again to the point of full downward motion of the aircraft no matter how hard the pilots fought the system, which they didn't necessarily know existed in the first place.

    I hope that if wrongdoing occurred that people are held accountable for their actions.

    I saw a documentary - it may have been from down under - where about 7-8 years ago Boeing was covering up deviations from approved type in their manufacturing process and fired several employees over their whistleblowing efforts. So this may be a pattern of behavior by Boeing and the FAA since the FAA was also implicated.

    Thankfully the FAA has moved toward a compliance model instead of punishment and hs also finally allowed some innovation - mainly in GA - by making the process for approvals less prescriptive. These are good things and have allowed new and exciting things into the cockpit and elsewhere (Dynon avionics, new avionics from others like Garmen, getting rid of vacuum pumps and gyros that are prone to failure, less expensive ADS-B devices to improve compliance with new requirements, and so on). These are good things.

    But this deal with Boeing smells rotten.
    I had read the Seattle Times article earlier. It's a long, painful read. The only way to explain it is circular group-think, where erroneous risk-assessment gets passed around until it's accepted dogma. It reminded me of touring Columbia during retooling, while a crew was gluing tiles back on the bottom. I was assured that it was done all the time and it wasn't a big deal. Until it was...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

TideFansStore.com Bama Gear