mass shooting at california dance bar - 12 dead

tattooguy21 said:

I think this is a great idea. The only concern I have is, you and I aren't friends, we're neighbors. And I hate your guts. And I know you love guns......and the games begin

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If a claim is made in bad faith then punish the guilty party.

NationalTitles17 said:

If a claim is made in bad faith then punish the guilty party.

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Another great idea. (No sarcasm)

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NationalTitles17 said:

There exists a way to remove guns or prevent their acquisition by people who have legitimate mental health issues that should prevent them from possessing a firearm and that also protects 2nd amendment rights. I've talked about it many times.

Problem is, this is another wedge issue the politicians would rather use to secure votes from idiots than to actually help alleviate the problem.

Basic premise:

Mental health/medical professionals, friends, family, law enforcement, or anyone with a reasonable cause/suspicion could petition the court.

Upon submission of petition the subject must relent to law enforcement all firearms and is placed on a list making the unable to purchase firearms legally until their case is handled by a judge.

There are strict time limits at each phase to prevent prohibition by delay.

Much like a hearing for mental health in which someone can be forced to undergo treatment, a judge resides over the case and hears testimony from each side and decides the case on a preponderance of evidence standard. If concerns are confirmed then the ban stands. If found to be unwarranted then a time limit is placed on removal from the list and return of any firearms taken unless stayed/pending on appeal.

Appeal to local, district, state, or federal courts remains an option for either party.

This is the only way I know to both protect the public from raging lunatics and protect the 2nd amendment through due process.

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Looks good on paper but in your opinion...what are the chances this can be accomplished?

Bazza said:

Looks good on paper but in your opinion...what are the chances this can be accomplished?

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Given that most people are not looking for a solution and continue to vote for politicians that are as bad or worse I'd say the chances are very small. Politicians aren't looking for viable solutions because the vast majority of people are not looking for viable solutions.

92tide said:

nope, not even close.

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Ok, cool. It was a genuine question though. So what is the objective?

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NationalTitles17 said:

Given that most people are not looking for a solution and continue to vote for politicians that are as bad or worse I'd say the chances are very small. Politicians aren't looking for viable solutions because the vast majority of people are not looking for viable solutions.

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I agree.

So realistically speaking - in your opinion, what can be done?

Bazza said:

I agree.

So realistically speaking - in your opinion, what can be done?

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Unless people change we'll get got we always got: more dead people and perhaps even more extreme pendulum swings.

NationalTitles17 said:

Unless people change we'll get got we always got: more dead people and perhaps even more extreme pendulum swings.

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I hear you.

I'm of the opinion that there's no absolute solution....we'll always have shootings.

My opinion is much of it is because people are unhappy. Unhappy with their lives. They feel isolated. Like I said earlier....the Internet has brought the world into our homes, so much so thatm any do not "get out" as much as they used to. They world is largely dictated by what they read and see on the Internet.

At some point, they become so depressed.....they decide to end it all. And of course, some feel they need to take others with them.

Keeping these types of people from owning guns is certainly a worthwhile endeavour.

But I don't see why a discussion cannot be had on the mental aspect as well. In particular how the Internet can effect certain people who are probably pre-disposed to this "isolation" effect.

Bazza said:

I hear you.

I'm of the opinion that there's no absolute solution....we'll always have shootings.

My opinion is much of it is because people are unhappy. Unhappy with their lives. They feel isolated. Like I said earlier....the Internet has brought the world into our homes, so much so thatm any do not "get out" as much as they used to. They world is largely dictated by what they read and see on the Internet.

At some point, they become so depressed.....they decide to end it all. And of course, some feel they need to take others with them.

Keeping these types of people from owning guns is certainly a worthwhile endeavour.

But I don't see why a discussion cannot be had on the mental aspect as well. In particular how the Internet can effect certain people who are probably pre-disposed to this "isolation" effect.

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There are many discussions that can be had and some will lead to worthwhile changes if people look for opportunities to make a difference.

While this would not eliminate all mass shootings it has potential to stop some and also to stop many other not-so-mass shootings.

IOW, it could make a huge difference.

Locally, a guy shot and killed a cop. For years family tried to get help. Police hands were tied. They literally had to wait until he killed a cop to do something.

That is insane and there is no good reason for it.

That same scene repeats itself over and over across the country quite often.

Most times there are warnings long before something happens. Those warnings should be heeded.

We can also have a conversation about how state governments have completely abandoned their responsibilities in regards to caring for the mentally ill/insane.

No one solution to any one problem is going to stop all shootings, but not doing anything because of that is a copout. It's like saying "I might as well not quit smoking because there is air pollution and radon."

What sense does that make?

None.

NationalTitles17 said:

There are many discussions that can be had and some will lead to worthwhile changes if people look for opportunities to make a difference.

While this would not eliminate all mass shootings it has potential to stop some and also to stop many other not-so-mass shootings.

IOW, it could make a huge difference.

Locally, a guy shot and killed a cop. For years family tried to get help. Police hands were tied. They literally had to wait until he killed a cop to do something.

That is insane and there is no good reason for it.

That same scene repeats itself over and over across the country quite often.

Most times there are warnings long before something happens. Those warnings should be heeded.

We can also have a conversation about how state governments have completely abandoned their responsibilities in regards to caring for the mentally ill/insane.

No one solution to any one problem is going to stop all shootings, but not doing anything because of that is a copout. It's like saying "I might as well not quit smoking because there is air pollution and radon."

What sense does that make?

None.

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Great post - and would like to see this same conversation on cable news....

92tide said:

for me personally, it should not be so easy for people to get guns. and people shouldn't be allowed to military grade weapons and ammo.

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I hope this doesn't seem like an attack, but can you elaborate?

Is a military grade weapon/ ammo a 9 mm pistol with hollow point ammo. Because that's the weapon I'm issued in the military.

And a 9mm is considered in the civilian world to be one of the more basic caliber of handguns.

I guess it comes down to exactly what is what. How is the system improved to reduce ease of purchase and then exactly what purchases are allowed.

I love buying guns. And I'm quickly becoming one of those perils that has so many guns that it's essentially an armory. Some I buy for purpose, but several I've bought (a 1921 Thompson machine gun for example) was 100% because of aesthetics, the history of the weapon, and quite frankly, I thought it was cool. And that's a CRAZY dangerous fully automatic weapon. I had to wait 8 months to get it because I was waiting on the tax stamp (atf big investigation).

And while the wait was annoying, I can understand it because of the increased danger of the system I was purchasing.



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CharminTide said:

Yeah, we've been here before. Undoubtedly someone will claim that they're more comfortable with mass shootings every week than with the gubment having mentally unstable people on a list. Lists are nonstarters for the reactionaries. The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of innocents, constant danger is a worthy price for absolute freedom, or something like that.

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Here's where you are wrong. Most of us are just concerned that there would be no checks and balances and if/when everyone HAS to be on gvt controlled healthcare then the gvt employed docs could put anyone on there that they want to with no recourse for appeal and thus institute a "legal" way around the 2nd amendment.

jthomas666 said:

We just need more civility, right?

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Yes, JT, we do. Especially when discussing topics like this because the snide remarks because someone doesn't wholly agree with you sure aren't going to get us anywhere.

BamaInMo1 said:

Here's where you are wrong. Most of us are just concerned that there would be no checks and balances and if/when everyone HAS to be on gvt controlled healthcare then the gvt employed docs could put anyone on there that they want to with no recourse for appeal and thus institute a "legal" way around the 2nd amendment.

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No. From my observation, this is merely an argument intended to shut down discussion. If it were truly a concern presented in good faith, you'd propose a way to address the issue. Only one poster has ever been wiling to do that; the rest just throw up their hands and walk away from the table.

CharminTide said:

No. From my observation, this is merely an argument intended to shut down discussion. If it were truly a concern presented in good faith, you'd propose a way to address the issue. Only one poster has ever been wiling to do that; the rest just throw up their hands and walk away from the table.

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I will be more than happy to elaborate more in this regard.
In order for someone to have their guns taken away by the gvt there needs to be guidelines set in stone so as to where they can't be construed any old way just to take someone's guns. There have to be stated mental illnesses that lead to guns being confiscated and recourse for people to appeal to have their guns returned if it is determined that they are "cured" of said mental illness. There are some mental illnesses that simply cannot be cured and in such cases their guns could be taken and sold at market value and the money given back to the person to help cover the cost of treatment for said mental illness.
I will agree that something has to be done. There is no doubt about it. But it can't just be a knee jerk reaction.
I've said this before, another piece of this puzzle is eradicating as many illegal guns as possible. If you get rid of legal guns without getting rid of the illegal guns then you can expect a lot more/larger shootings than we have now.
There is not a one size fits all solution to this as there will always be someone slip thru the cracks and there will always be death as long as there are humans walking this earth.
The other problem is, as someone has said before, the politicians don't want to solve these issues. Neither side wants it resolved. The only way it will get fixed or any solutions come up with and forced thru is if we listen to each other and work things out and understand that neither side of the argument is going to get everything it wants but with some compromise we could at least try to make things better.