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    Pitching discussion (was: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Looking up the question, I found this:


    The Most Unbreakable Records in College Football
    Yeah, it's like Cy Young's 511 wins - NOBODY is even going to come CLOSE to it.

    The closest anyone ever came is Walter Johnson, and he's still nearly 100 wins short.

    The closest guy in the last 50 years is Greg Maddux....and he's 156 short (which is more than most starters win in their careers).

    Think about it like this:
    Add Greg Maddux's win total with Cole Hamels......and you TIE Cy Young.


    But again - context causes that.


    Pitchers no longer start 55 games a season (which he did FIVE times).

    Context.
    Context.
    Context.


    Nobody is approaching 17 shutouts in a row.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

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    BamaNation All-American tusks_n_raider's Avatar
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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Not to get too far off-topic but if there was any pitcher you could put back in time to challenge Cy Young's wins it would be Greg Maddux.

    He was deadly precise which kept his pitch counts super low so he would have definitely had the arm to pitch more often.

    As it is he holds the MLB record for times leading the league in games started in a season (7 times) and he led the league in IP (5) Times.

    He's also the only pitcher EVER to notch 300+ wins w/ 3,000+ K's and less than 1,000 walks.

    I'm biased as a Braves fan but he's the best all around complete pitcher I've ever seen.

    That 2-seam fastball he had that started off the plate and broke back to catch the corner was NASTY. His Circle Change was wicked too. He was just brilliant at changing speeds and locations.

    He really was the 'Professor'.
    Last edited by tusks_n_raider; November 15th, 2018 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by tusks_n_raider View Post
    Not to get too far off-topic but if there was any pitcher you could put back in time to challenge Cy Young's wins it would be Greg Maddux.

    He was deadly precise which kept his pitch counts super low so he would have definitely had the arm to pitch more often.

    As it is he holds the MLB record for times leading the league in games started in a season (7 times) and he led the league in IP (5) Times.

    He's also the only pitcher EVER to notch 300+ wins w/ 3,000+ K's and less than 1,000 walks.

    I'm biased as a Braves fan but he's the best all around complete pitcher I've ever seen.

    That 2-seam fastball he had that started off the plate and broke back to catch the corner was NASTY. His Circle Change was wicked too. He was just brilliant and changing speeds and locations.

    He really was the 'Professor'.
    Agreed - he is the best pitcher in the modern era (who did not cheat), and it isn't close. Put him in any era and he is the best, or close enough not to be able to tell the difference. Maddux did not win with power. He won because he was smarter than any other player in the game, and he could put the ball exactly where he wanted to on every single pitch, with movement, and while changing speeds. He was the master.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by tusks_n_raider View Post
    Not to get too far off-topic but if there was any pitcher you could put back in time to challenge Cy Young's wins it would be Greg Maddux.

    He was deadly precise which kept his pitch counts super low so he would have definitely had the arm to pitch more often.

    As it is he holds the MLB record for times leading the league in games started in a season (7 times) and he led the league in IP (5) Times.

    He's also the only pitcher EVER to notch 300+ wins w/ 3,000+ K's and less than 1,000 walks.

    I'm biased as a Braves fan but he's the best all around complete pitcher I've ever seen.

    That 2-seam fastball he had that started off the plate and broke back to catch the corner was NASTY. His Circle Change was wicked too. He was just brilliant and changing speeds and locations.

    He really was the 'Professor'.
    I took my sons to Wrigley and watched Greg in his prime. The Cubs knew it was not going to be their day. His demeanor and baby face belied what an awesome athlete he was.

    My son and I worked on the circle change and two seam fastball watching Glavin and Maddox those years and it took him about as far as his body size and type would allow.

    Also happened to see Clemens in his early days at Boston versus the Brewers in Milwaukee. It was man vs boys that day.

    Both pretty fair country pitchers!

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    I took my sons to Wrigley and watched Greg in his prime. The Cubs knew it was not going to be their day. His demeanor and baby face belied what an awesome athlete he was.

    My son and I worked on the circle change and two seam fastball watching Glavin and Maddox those years and it took him about as far as his body size and type would allow.

    Also happened to see Clemens in his early days at Boston versus the Brewers in Milwaukee. It was man vs boys that day.

    Both pretty fair country pitchers!
    That's something often overlooked too is his athleticism. He won a MLB record 18 Gold Gloves for his fielding!!!

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    I took my sons to Wrigley and watched Greg in his prime. The Cubs knew it was not going to be their day. His demeanor and baby face belied what an awesome athlete he was.

    My son and I worked on the circle change and two seam fastball watching Glavin and Maddox those years and it took him about as far as his body size and type would allow.

    Also happened to see Clemens in his early days at Boston versus the Brewers in Milwaukee. It was man vs boys that day.

    Both pretty fair country pitchers!
    It took me a second to figure out what you meant, since Greg pitched for the Cubs before and after his time with the Braves.
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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    It took me a second to figure out what you meant, since Greg pitched for the Cubs before and after his time with the Braves.
    Yes I knew that was a bit confusing. I believe Greg won twenty games when he was a Cub.

    Klesko hit a 3 run homer the day we were there and the Cubbies knew the day was done with them facing Maddox. It was a free hat day and left field was showered with Cub hats after that. It was good though to visit Wrigley where Lou Gehrig and so many others had appeared.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Man the size and shape of the ball sure changed fast...


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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    Yes I knew that was a bit confusing. I believe Greg won twenty games when he was a Cub.

    Klesko hit a 3 run homer the day we were there and the Cubbies knew the day was done with them facing Maddox. It was a free hat day and left field was showered with Cub hats after that. It was good though to visit Wrigley where Lou Gehrig and so many others had appeared.
    I think that he won his first Cy Young award in Chicago. I was amazed when he chose Atlanta over the $$ offered by the Yankees.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    Yes I knew that was a bit confusing. I believe Greg won twenty games when he was a Cub.

    Klesko hit a 3 run homer the day we were there and the Cubbies knew the day was done with them facing Maddox. It was a free hat day and left field was showered with Cub hats after that. It was good though to visit Wrigley where Lou Gehrig and so many others had appeared.
    Yeah he only won 20 games two times..... 1992(last year with the Cubs) and 1993 (1st year with the Braves).

    His 1992-1995 was about the most dominant one pitcher has ever been in a 4 year span.

    His ERA over that span was 1.98!!! The Braves had a bad habit of not giving him the best run support and he had his fair share of ND's.

    He almost certainly would have had 20+ wins in 1994 if not for the strike. He was DEALING that year... 16-6 with a 1.56 ERA.

    He came close several times..... had like (5) 19 win seasons and a couple 18 Win seasons.

    He's also the only pitcher EVER to win 15 or more games for 17 straight seasons. That's just insane in modern Baseball.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    Yes I knew that was a bit confusing. I believe Greg won twenty games when he was a Cub.
    Correct. Maddux won 20 games in 1992 and his first Cy Young. The Braves had to decide whether to bid high for Barry Bonds or Maddux, and I was hoping they'd choose Maddux. He actually only took $500K more than the Cubs offered to go to Atlanta. He turned down an additional $8 million the Yankees would have paid him. (It seems hard to believe, but the Yankees of 1993 were not thought of as a team on the verge of a dynasty).


    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    Klesko hit a 3 run homer the day we were there and the Cubbies knew the day was done with them facing Maddox. It was a free hat day and left field was showered with Cub hats after that. It was good though to visit Wrigley where Lou Gehrig and so many others had appeared.

    You got me curious so I'm hunting for this game.


    Here's what I find when Maddux faced Chicago from 1993-99 when Klesko was a Brave.


    In 1993, Maddux pitched twice in Wrigley, a 1-0 Opening Day win, and a no decision in a Braves loss on 8/20.


    Maddux did not pitch any games in Wrigley in 1994, 1996, or 1998.


    1994
    4/15 - Klesko hits a two-run dinger in a 19-5 Braves rout behind Tom Glavine

    1995
    8/26 - Maddux wins a 7-2 complete game over Steve Trachsel. Chipper hits a two-run HR in the fifth. Klesko leaves for a pinch-runner after an RBI single in a 5-run Braves third

    1997
    4/12 - Maddux pitches a great 7 innings but gets an ND in a 2-1 Braves win. Klesko goes 2 for 4 with a K and scores both Braves runs

    7/22 - in the first game of a doubleheader, Maddux gives up 5 hits and goes the distance in a 4-1 win. Michael Tucker hits a 2-run HR, Klesko goes 1 for 4 with an RBI single in the top of the first


    1999
    5/15 - Cubs beat Maddux, 5-1, and Kelsko Ks twice. Cubs get three in top of first, Maddux goes 7.

    Those are the only games both played at Wrigley.


    So I searched Klesko.


    He did have a game against the Cubs in ATLANTA (6/6/95) where he homered twice and drove in six runs (a grand slam and a 2-run HR).

    Also - on 9/1/95, Klesko hit two 2-run HRs off Bullinger.....but that was also in Atlanta

    Klesko hit a 3-run homer against the Cubs on 5/22/96 in Atlanta with Glavine pitching that was a 3-run HR.

    Five days later in Chicago, Klesko hit a grand slam to give Glavine a 9-1 win.



    I was hunting to try and find the box score for you. Don't take what I'm saying here as poorly reflective on you - I've had to learn that my memory is radically different from the recall others have. I think what PROBABLY happened is you saw Maddux pitch one time and Glavine at Wrigley when Klesko homered a DIFFERENT time (because there were a few of those). So I don't doubt the basics of what you remember - just some of the details.

    And I "get" what you're saying about the legends of baseball playing somewhere - kinda cool. I was about to say, "I don't think Gehrig ever played in Wrigley Field because he was a Yankee and there was no interleague play back then.

    But then I suddenly remembered that the Yankees swept the Cubs in the 1932 World Series where Ruth (allegedly) called his shot off Charley Root. So Gehrig DID, without question, play there in some rather meaningful games. In fact, Gehrig homered twice in that game, including right after Ruth's famed home run that may or may not have been predicted (probably was not).

    In the bigger picture - thanks for sharing.
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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by tusks_n_raider View Post
    Yeah he only won 20 games two times..... 1992(last year with the Cubs) and 1993 (1st year with the Braves).

    His 1992-1995 was about the most dominant one pitcher has ever been in a 4 year span.

    His ERA over that span was 1.98!!! The Braves had a bad habit of not giving him the best run support and he had his fair share of ND's.

    He almost certainly would have had 20+ wins in 1994 if not for the strike. He was DEALING that year... 16-6 with a 1.56 ERA.

    He came close several times..... had like (5) 19 win seasons and a couple 18 Win seasons.

    He's also the only pitcher EVER to win 15 or more games for 17 straight seasons. That's just insane in modern Baseball.

    Follow me in this.


    1988 (18-8, 3.18 ERA)
    Lost 3-0 to STL in the 11th inning after he held them to two hits through 10
    Leaves with a 2-1 leave on PIT, Pirates tie it but Cubs win later, Maddux ND

    So basically, a hit and a decent pen and Maddux goes 20-7 in 1988. He won't win the Cy (Orel was lights out that year) but that increases his win total by two. But we're just getting started.

    1989 (19-12, 2.95) - Cubs win NL East pennant
    pitches a complete game three-hitter and loses, 1-0, on a double and error in the 8th
    Maddux pitches 5 good innings and leaves leading, 3-0, and the bullpen blows it, 4-3 ND
    first three batters get three hits and two runs, Maddux gives up 2 hits the rest of the way - and loses, 2-1
    pitches 8 innings and gets pinch hit for in a 2-2 tie, Cubs score 3 in the 12th to win but Maddux ND

    A little offense - two hits per game - and Maddux is suddenly 21-10 (and probably wins the CYA - he finished 3rd behind reliever Mark Davis and 20-game winner Mike Scott, but I think 21 wins on a division winner would have given him the award)


    The problem is.....this is just a microcosm. Maddux's entire career from 1988-2001 is FULL of things like this.


    In 1990, he wasn't quite as good. He was 15-15 with a 3.46, but remember he got a lot start because of the lockout that year. It helped power pitchers throw a bunch of no-nos, but it hurt control pitchers like Maddux, who found their groove later.

    Anyway, I could go on forever, but I concur with the above points.



    So that I don't lose this as a football thread:



    TUA!!!!!
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

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    Re: When is the last time you've seen a NCAA Football team have four straight shutout

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Correct. Maddux won 20 games in 1992 and his first Cy Young. The Braves had to decide whether to bid high for Barry Bonds or Maddux, and I was hoping they'd choose Maddux. He actually only took $500K more than the Cubs offered to go to Atlanta. He turned down an additional $8 million the Yankees would have paid him. (It seems hard to believe, but the Yankees of 1993 were not thought of as a team on the verge of a dynasty
    You got me curious so I'm hunting for this game.

    Here's what I find when Maddux faced Chicago from 1993-99 when Klesko was a Brave.


    In 1993, Maddux pitched twice in Wrigley, a 1-0 Opening Day win, and a no decision in a Braves loss on 8/20.


    Maddux did not pitch any games in Wrigley in 1994, 1996, or 1998.


    1994
    4/15 - Klesko hits a two-run dinger in a 19-5 Braves rout behind Tom Glavine

    1995
    8/26 - Maddux wins a 7-2 complete game over Steve Trachsel. Chipper hits a two-run HR in the fifth. Klesko leaves for a pinch-runner after an RBI single in a 5-run Braves third

    1997
    4/12 - Maddux pitches a great 7 innings but gets an ND in a 2-1 Braves win. Klesko goes 2 for 4 with a K and scores both Braves runs

    7/22 - in the first game of a doubleheader, Maddux gives up 5 hits and goes the distance in a 4-1 win. Michael Tucker hits a 2-run HR, Klesko goes 1 for 4 with an RBI single in the top of the first


    1999
    5/15 - Cubs beat Maddux, 5-1, and Kelsko Ks twice. Cubs get three in top of first, Maddux goes 7.

    Those are the only games both played at Wrigley.


    So I searched Klesko.


    He did have a game against the Cubs in ATLANTA (6/6/95) where he homered twice and drove in six runs (a grand slam and a 2-run HR).

    Also - on 9/1/95, Klesko hit two 2-run HRs off Bullinger.....but that was also in Atlanta

    Klesko hit a 3-run homer against the Cubs on 5/22/96 in Atlanta with Glavine pitching that was a 3-run HR.

    Five days later in Chicago, Klesko hit a grand slam to give Glavine a 9-1 win.



    I was hunting to try and find the box score for you. Don't take what I'm saying here as poorly reflective on you - I've had to learn that my memory is radically different from the recall others have. I think what PROBABLY happened is you saw Maddux pitch one time and Glavine at Wrigley when Klesko homered a DIFFERENT time (because there were a few of those). So I don't doubt the basics of what you remember - just some of the details.

    And I "get" what you're saying about the legends of baseball playing somewhere - kinda cool. I was about to say, "I don't think Gehrig ever played in Wrigley Field because he was a Yankee and there was no interleague play back then.

    But then I suddenly remembered that the Yankees swept the Cubs in the 1932 World Series where Ruth (allegedly) called his shot off Charley Root. So Gehrig DID, without question, play there in some rather meaningful games. In fact, Gehrig homered twice in that game, including right after Ruth's famed home run that may or may not have been predicted (probably was not).

    In the bigger picture - thanks for sharing.
    You got me questioning my memory now. I did go to Atlanta and see the Cubs and Braves again in 1994 or 1995. I will try to pin down some dates and details on that Cubs game in Chicago. You can appreciate that we basically watched every Braves game and some of that may have gotten a bit muddled.

    I grew up reading a lot of baseball and recall in a Lou Gehrig biography that he had a try out at Wrigley probably after high school and hit a couple of shots across the street in right field. That was what I was referring to.

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