Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships - Page 5
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  1. #53
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Jon's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    What do you think Ukraine's interest in all this is? Do you think that establishing a positive link between Russian pressure/persuasion and Trump policy would help Ukraine or hurt them? It would be bad for Trump but it would be really bad in the long term for Russia and that is what Ukraine is all about. I think Ukraine would throw Trump under the bus in a heartbeat if doing so would screw the Russians.
    Ukraine is fighting for their survival and independence at a time when the President of the United States is on his knees for the country that invaded them. They'll do whatever works for weapons and hope for the best at this point
    "There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." - Terry Pratchett

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  3. #54
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Ukraine is fighting for their survival and independence at a time when the President of the United States is on his knees for the country that invaded them. They'll do whatever works for weapons and hope for the best at this point
    Maybe, but the fact remains that Trump authorized the sale of antitank missiles to Ukraine and those missile will be used to kill Russians. If he was "on his knees" for Russia, why would he approve the sale of weapons that would directly be used to kill Russians? The Russian government vehemently disapproved of the sale.
    From the article I posted:
    That announcement sparked a sharp rebuke from Moscow, with Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov accusing the United States of "fomenting a war."

  4. #55
    BamaNation Hall of Fame MattinBama's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Maybe, but the fact remains that Trump authorized the sale of antitank missiles to Ukraine and those missile will be used to kill Russians. If he was "on his knees" for Russia, why would he approve the sale of weapons that would directly be used to kill Russians? The Russian government vehemently disapproved of the sale.
    From the article I posted:
    Just my opinion...

    But I'm guessing that he got approval first. And if not he probably got a paddlin' from his boss later on. Or Putin is about four steps ahead and is fine with sacrificing some mercenaries to study the javelin more closely in the field and potentially capture some for reverse engineering (while also having his government play act about how upset they are).

    No inside information as to that being true, just more of a gut feeling that it is possible.

  5. #56
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Displaced Bama Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Do the Russians have that many competent tank crews to operate them?

  6. #57
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Jon's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Maybe, but the fact remains that Trump authorized the sale of antitank missiles to Ukraine and those missile will be used to kill Russians. If he was "on his knees" for Russia, why would he approve the sale of weapons that would directly be used to kill Russians? The Russian government vehemently disapproved of the sale.
    From the article I posted:
    I believe that has already been answered and really by now you still don't think Trump is compromised by Russia, how much more do you need?
    "There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." - Terry Pratchett

  7. #58
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Ukraine is fighting for their survival and independence at a time when the President of the United States is on his knees for the country that invaded them. They'll do whatever works for weapons and hope for the best at this point
    The Ukraine has also been trying to draw us into this conflict, one which we should have no part of. So whether or not Trump is giving Putin a blowie or not, Ukraine is a place we don't need to be...along with Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria. Let Europe step and help the Ukrainians instead of us having to go further in debt.

  8. #59
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I believe that has already been answered and really by now you still don't think Trump is compromised by Russia, how much more do you need?
    Where was Obama on Ukraine the whole time? Was he compromised too? Looks like all he gave Ukraine was "moral" support while shifting interest to Syria.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...a-putin-219783

  9. #60
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Jon's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced Bama Fan View Post
    Where was Obama on Ukraine the whole time? Was he compromised too? Looks like all he gave Ukraine was "moral" support while shifting interest to Syria.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...a-putin-219783
    no, Obama was afraid of conflict and while a vastly superior President I still had a very low opinion of his foreign policy
    "There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." - Terry Pratchett

  10. #61
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by MattinBama View Post
    Just my opinion...

    But I'm guessing that he got approval first. And if not he probably got a paddlin' from his boss later on. Or Putin is about four steps ahead and is fine with sacrificing some mercenaries to study the javelin more closely in the field and potentially capture some for reverse engineering (while also having his government play act about how upset they are).

    No inside information as to that being true, just more of a gut feeling that it is possible.
    Possible, yes.

    On the other hand,
    In December [2017] after the State Department approved the sale, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said, “The United States is, in fact, encouraging the resumption of large-scale bloodshed in Donbass, where the situation is already on the edge due to continuing shelling from the Kiev-controlled side…Washington, in fact, becomes an accomplice in the killing of people.”
    The Russians sure do a lot of caterwauling over an action they want to happen.

  11. #62
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Maybe, but the fact remains that Trump authorized the sale of antitank missiles to Ukraine and those missile will be used to kill Russians. If he was "on his knees" for Russia, why would he approve the sale of weapons that would directly be used to kill Russians? The Russian government vehemently disapproved of the sale.
    From the article I posted:
    Are you overlooking the possibility that Trump is angry with Putin for not “supporting “ his tower in Moscow?
    Once that became known, Putin lost his leverage. Trump was “on his knees” to Putin until Cohen got busted. After that, all bets were off.
    When were the Javelins sold to the Ukraine? Go back and look at the dates - as soon as Cohen’s office got raided, Trump sells Javelins to Ukraine.
    It’s not a coincidence.


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  12. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I believe that has already been answered and really by now you still don't think Trump is compromised by Russia, how much more do you need?
    Did the Russians also pressure Trump into announcing the withdrawal from the INF Treaty?
    Did Russia pressure Trump into expanding and toughening economic sanctions against Russian oligarchs last spring? A former Obama Administration sanctions official characterized them as "fairly muscular."
    Heck, the Russians are reducing their defense spending because they cannot maintain it at current levels, much less sink a bunch more money into intermediate range nuclear forces. Every artillery round they fire in Donbas and every bomb they drop in Syria comes out of the Russian defense budget
    Trump has done all kinds of things that tick Putin off, maybe just because they tick Putin off.

    On the other hand, Obama ridiculed Romney for saying Russia was America's gravest strategic threat and directed the Ukrainians not to shoot at invading Russian soldiers as they were taking over Crimea. Of course, nobody seriously accuses Obama of being a puppet of Russia but these "soft on Russia" data points are very real. If you begin with your conclusion and cram facts into that conclusion, you could come to a deceptive picture things.

    My point is that you would do well to be a little more judicious.

    No, I did not vote for Trump.

  13. #64
    BamaNation Hall of Fame MattinBama's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Possible, yes.

    On the other hand,

    The Russians sure do a lot of caterwauling over an action they want to happen.
    Words are wind.

  14. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Jon's Avatar
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    Re: Tension escalates after Russia seizes Ukraine naval ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Did the Russians also pressure Trump into announcing the withdrawal from the INF Treaty?
    no idea why we quit the IMF, haven't followed it closely

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Did Russia pressure Trump into expanding and toughening economic sanctions against Russian oligarchs last spring? A former Obama Administration sanctions official characterized them as "fairly muscular."
    no, congress did. Don't you remember? It made huge news and Trump is still trying to pull back and not actually enforce them. Have you actually been paying attention or do you just like the arguing (I must admit I do sometimes too)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Heck, the Russians are reducing their defense spending because they cannot maintain it at current levels, much less sink a bunch more money into intermediate range nuclear forces. Every artillery round they fire in Donbas and every bomb they drop in Syria comes out of the Russian defense budget
    Trump has done all kinds of things that tick Putin off, maybe just because they tick Putin off.

    On the other hand, Obama ridiculed Romney for saying Russia was America's gravest strategic threat and directed the Ukrainians not to shoot at invading Russian soldiers as they were taking over Crimea. Of course, nobody seriously accuses Obama of being a puppet of Russia but these "soft on Russia" data points are very real. If you begin with your conclusion and cram facts into that conclusion, you could come to a deceptive picture things.

    My point is that you would do well to be a little more judicious.

    No, I did not vote for Trump.
    again, Obama was soft and not great on foreign policy
    "There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." - Terry Pratchett

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