Macron returns home to riots over fuel taxes

Tidewater

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There is a pretty substantial divide in France between the country and Paris.
Imagine taking all the arrogance and self-centeredness of New York and Washington and you'd approach that of Paris.


This is what a real carbon tax looks like.
 

Its On A Slab

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Given that his party (En Marche) is nominally center-left, I think the biggest beef the rioters have against Macron is the whole idea of neo-liberal economics, the idea that liberal ideas can exist with a thriving economy. The protests are supposed to be about fuel tax hikes, yet I am hearing (from an article I just read) that there is "dissatisfaction with Macron's economic policies, which many voters feel are in favour of the wealthy and big businesses."

My Argentine friends in BsAs are nearly all leftist Peronists, and they are applauding the riots in Paris. Yet they are all pretty spoiled with past Peronist policies that gave them "free" education and "free" healthcare, and they despise the current leader in Argentina (Mauricio Macri) who has sought to get their spiraling inflation under control by cutting services, and thru implementation of austerity measures.

So, I think the whole protest comes down to people who are against neo-liberalism.

Nothing is free. Someone has to pay for it. Which does't mean that's a bad thing. But when you start thinking something exists in-and-of-itself, without a cost, that's a recipe for unrest - as wrong as their original assumption is.
 
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Bodhisattva

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Given that his party (En Marche) is nominally center-left, I think the biggest beef the rioters have against Macron is the whole idea of neo-liberal economics, the idea that liberal ideas can exist with a thriving economy. The protests are supposed to be about fuel tax hikes, yet I am hearing (from an article I just read) that there is "dissatisfaction with Macron's economic policies, which many voters feel are in favour of the wealthy and big businesses."

My Argentine friends in BsAs are nearly all leftist Peronists, and they are applauding the riots in Paris. Yet they are all pretty spoiled with past Peronist policies that gave them "free" education and "free" healthcare, and they despise the current leader in Argentina (Mauricio Macri) who has sought to get their spiraling inflation under control by cutting services, and thru implementation of austerity measures.

So, I think the whole protest comes down to people who are against neo-liberalism.

Nothing is free. Someone has to pay for it. Which does't mean that's a bad thing. But when you start thinking something exists in-and-of-itself, without a cost, that's a recipe for unrest - as wrong as their original assumption is.
These people sound confused about a lot of things.

Unfortunately, this idea that the government can give me stuff at no cost (and with no theft, if they even care about that) is wide spread. Not only do people think things are free; they think the cost of government is free.

TANSTAAFL
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Given that his party (En Marche) is nominally center-left, I think the biggest beef the rioters have against Macron is the whole idea of neo-liberal economics, the idea that liberal ideas can exist with a thriving economy. The protests are supposed to be about fuel tax hikes, yet I am hearing (from an article I just read) that there is "dissatisfaction with Macron's economic policies, which many voters feel are in favour of the wealthy and big businesses."

My Argentine friends in BsAs are nearly all leftist Peronists, and they are applauding the riots in Paris. Yet they are all pretty spoiled with past Peronist policies that gave them "free" education and "free" healthcare, and they despise the current leader in Argentina (Mauricio Macri) who has sought to get their spiraling inflation under control by cutting services, and thru implementation of austerity measures.

So, I think the whole protest comes down to people who are against neo-liberalism.

Nothing is free. Someone has to pay for it. Which does't mean that's a bad thing. But when you start thinking something exists in-and-of-itself, without a cost, that's a recipe for unrest - as wrong as their original assumption is.
I had to go back and check user id on the poster.... ;)
 

Its On A Slab

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I had to go back and check user id on the poster.... ;)
Lol...no, I've not changed any. I still believe in those things. I just know that it's not free.

People who grow up thinking everything is free become Bernie Sanders fanatics. I had several conversations in Buenos Aires last year(and with expats here) with erstwhile educated people who were adamant that education "has and always will be free" in Argentina. And I got blank stares when I asked, "Who pays for all of this?" My guess was that they thought it was free of any cost.
 

twofbyc

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Lol...no, I've not changed any. I still believe in those things. I just know that it's not free.

People who grow up thinking everything is free become Bernie Sanders fanatics. I had several conversations in Buenos Aires last year(and with expats here) with erstwhile educated people who were adamant that education "has and always will be free" in Argentina. And I got blank stares when I asked, "Who pays for all of this?" My guess was that they thought it was free of any cost.
Well, I know a few Bernie Sanders fanatics (from down here) - hell I AM one, and proudly. And what you just said about us thinking everything should be “free” is a lie created by the right, and bought into by many in the middle and even some left of center.
The reality is, people who spread the lie just don’t like the way we want to pay for it, so rather than debate how our interstate system would have never been built if the tax rates had been back then what they are now, or that our military whizzes away billions every year with no legitimate oversight, it’s easier just to say we want everything for free.


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uafanataum

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Well, I know a few Bernie Sanders fanatics (from down here) - hell I AM one, and proudly. And what you just said about us thinking everything should be “free” is a lie created by the right, and bought into by many in the middle and even some left of center.
The reality is, people who spread the lie just don’t like the way we want to pay for it, so rather than debate how our interstate system would have never been built if the tax rates had been back then what they are now, or that our military whizzes away billions every year with no legitimate oversight, it’s easier just to say we want everything for free.
I'm not sure why Macron is being compared to Sanders. Both of their ideas are dumb and unsustainable, but they are not the same.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Yellow-jacket riots spread to Brussels.
BRUSSELS IN FLAMES: French riots spread to Belgium - HUNDREDS go on rampage at home of EU
I am not sure why Belgians, who, living in another country, would be uneffected by Macron neo-liberal policies, would be protesting Macron policies.
I struggled a bit with this one too. Things are dying down in the provinces in France, probably because the riots were doing so much local economic damage. At least, my daughter and hubby can now get to Albertville for restaurant supplies with opening two weeks away. One point she made to me was that these were out and out riots, not demonstrations. Having lived in DC so long, she's no stranger to demonstrations. She said that, in France, there was not only no police control, there was no attempt by the police to do anything other than stay out of the way. I would imagine that the Belgians are afraid they're next for climate control taxes...
 

Its On A Slab

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Well, I know a few Bernie Sanders fanatics (from down here) - hell I AM one, and proudly. And what you just said about us thinking everything should be “free” is a lie created by the right, and bought into by many in the middle and even some left of center.
The reality is, people who spread the lie just don’t like the way we want to pay for it, so rather than debate how our interstate system would have never been built if the tax rates had been back then what they are now, or that our military whizzes away billions every year with no legitimate oversight, it’s easier just to say we want everything for free.

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My biggest problem with the Bernie folks, aside from the sloppy economic theories: Bernie is not a Democrat. He and his followers are Fifth Columns. If he doesn't want to be a Democrat, run as an independent or 3rd party. Either way, they don't represent Middle America. The country is nowhere near as fringe Left as Bernie and his supporters claim. Nearly all of the Bernie-backed candidates lost in the mid-terms.....save for those running in progressive districts.

The Bernie followers seem to be inordinately of the opinion that if they don't get everything they want, take the ball and go home. I credit Bernie for campaigning for HRC in the Fall of 2016, but his followers (those I know personally) remained sulking and refusing to support HRC, either staying home or voting for Putin's girlfriend (not Donald, Green Party candidate, Jill Stein).
 
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uafanataum

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My biggest problem with the Bernie folks, aside from the sloppy economic theories: Bernie is not a Democrat. He and his followers are Fifth Columns. If he doesn't want to be a Democrat, run as an independent or 3rd party. Either way, they don't represent Middle America. The country is nowhere near as fringe Left as Bernie and his supporters claim. Nearly all of the Bernie-backed candidates lost in the mid-terms.....save for those running in progressive districts.
Parties evolve. I would like to say that Trumpers need to stop pretending to be Republican but it seems that is the way the party is moving. Maybe as republicans move farther off one cliff the democrats will move off the other.
 

CharminTide

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Parties evolve. I would like to say that Trumpers need to stop pretending to be Republican but it seems that is the way the party is moving. Maybe as republicans move farther off one cliff the democrats will move off the other.
Republicans have become a fringe right party. Democrats are moderates, at least for now.

Individual exceptions obviously exist -- Kasich is more moderate than most of his party, and AOC is to the left of her party. But broadly speaking, this seems to be how the political landscape has settled over the past few years.
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Republicans have become a fringe right party. Democrats are moderates, at least for now.

Individual exceptions obviously exist -- Kasich is more moderate than most of his party, and AOC is to the left of her party. But broadly speaking, this seems to be how the political landscape has settled over the past few years.
I nearly spit my drink on my screen....
 

twofbyc

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My biggest problem with the Bernie folks, aside from the sloppy economic theories: Bernie is not a Democrat. He and his followers are Fifth Columns. If he doesn't want to be a Democrat, run as an independent or 3rd party. Either way, they don't represent Middle America. The country is nowhere near as fringe Left as Bernie and his supporters claim. Nearly all of the Bernie-backed candidates lost in the mid-terms.....save for those running in progressive districts.

The Bernie followers seem to be inordinately of the opinion that if they don't get everything they want, take the ball and go home. I credit Bernie for campaigning for HRC in the Fall of 2016, but his followers (those I know personally) remained sulking and refusing to support HRC, either staying home or voting for Putin's girlfriend (not Donald, Green Party candidate, Jill Stein).
No, Bernie wasn’t a Democrat. He thought there should be an alternative to Hillary and he was right.
Now it’s “sloppy economic theories”, huh? Y’all are priceless.
Here’s another tidbit: vast numbers of those who voted for Bernie in the “open” primary states ( states where you didn’t have to be a registered party member to vote in their primaries) weren’t Dems either, and still aren’t and many of us never will be as long as it hangs off of Wall Street’ s teat.
The number of self declared independent voters in this country pretty much equals the number who identify with either major party. If the Dems don’t wake up and understand that we’re not coming to them, they’ll either come to us or you get four more years of the Orange Buffoon (if he’s not in prison).


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CharminTide

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It probably depends on your definition of moderate. To some people the Republicans probably look moderate and to others they look downright extreme. Depends on your point of view.
Locking immigrant children in cages is not a moderate position. Anyone who thinks differently needs to look deeply inward.
 

bama_wayne1

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Well, I know a few Bernie Sanders fanatics (from down here) - hell I AM one, and proudly. And what you just said about us thinking everything should be “free” is a lie created by the right, and bought into by many in the middle and even some left of center.
The reality is, people who spread the lie just don’t like the way we want to pay for it, so rather than debate how our interstate system would have never been built if the tax rates had been back then what they are now, or that our military whizzes away billions every year with no legitimate oversight, it’s easier just to say we want everything for free.


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I'm a conservative, yet I want people to have what they want. I just want them to pay for what they want and I'll pay for what I want.
 

Its On A Slab

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No, Bernie wasn’t a Democrat. He thought there should be an alternative to Hillary and he was right.
Now it’s “sloppy economic theories”, huh? Y’all are priceless.
Here’s another tidbit: vast numbers of those who voted for Bernie in the “open” primary states ( states where you didn’t have to be a registered party member to vote in their primaries) weren’t Dems either, and still aren’t and many of us never will be as long as it hangs off of Wall Street’ s teat.
The number of self declared independent voters in this country pretty much equals the number who identify with either major party. If the Dems don’t wake up and understand that we’re not coming to them, they’ll either come to us or you get four more years of the Orange Buffoon (if he’s not in prison).


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Don't you think that a sizable number of Bernie votes in open primary states were really people voting against Hillary? I know I've crossed the lines before and voted Republican in order to vote against someone I found more odious than the other candidates.

And don't get me started on caucuses. I participated in the 2008 and 2012 caucuses here in Nebraska. Organized (and many times disorganized) chaos, people shouting, fanboys trucked in to boost their candidate. It's the most undemocratic way of voting I can think of. A lot of people didn't participate because they simply didn't understand the process. *** is wrong with just casting a secret ballot at a polling place......like every other election? Sanders won the Mickey Mouse caucus here, but, by law, we also had a meaningless primary along with the other party primaries.......and HRC won that one by 6%.

Trump won because he pulled in enough of Middle America away from a bad candidate(Hillary). Give them someone who is likable, and that candidate wins. Look at the razor thin margins in the Rust Belt. People just weren't excited about HRC. And Bernie would have gotten killed. Everybody's grumpy old grandfather. Trump would have eaten him alive....as he sucked the life out of the Republican debates.

I'm glad you recognized Bernie's major fault: Not being a Democrat. I would welcome he and his supporters to join the party and work within. Otherwise, it's just a Fifth Column. Unreliable. Suspect.

I am a stockholder, and I believe that a strong Wall Street can exist with a progressive, pragmatic agenda.
 
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