Why defense should matter in the Heisman race

81usaf92

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Nope, nope, nope, seriously not even close.

Haskins is closer to Murray than Murray is to Tua. I mean go ahead and give UCF the national championship while you're at it, since how you perform relative to the competition you face doesn't mean anything to you.

Apparently it's all just an empty stats award. UCF is undefeated, Murray has a rating of 205, that's three whole points higher than Tua, case closed. Who cares if Murray didn't have to play great defenses and UCF didn't have to plays great teams. Gives them their trophies already.
Well..... I’m just going to stop since you can’t let your biases and disappointments over what has been a secondary trophy to Bama fans give way to a meaningful discussion.

I told you long ago that Tua had very room for error but you and the majority on this board would have none of it, but here we are hoping Tua wins as an underdog instead of a favorite. Sorry you can’t accept the reality of heisman voting has finally become clear even with crimson colored glasses on and our QB’s chances aren’t very favorable.
 
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B1GTide

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Well..... I’m just going to stop since you can’t let your biases and disappointments over what has been a secondary trophy to Bama fans give way to a meaningful discussion.

I told you long ago that Tua had very room for error but you and the majority on this board would have none of it, but here we are hoping Tua wins as an underdog instead of a favorite. Sorry you can’t accept the reality of heisman voting has finally become clear even with crimson colored glasses on and our QB’s chances aren’t very favorable.
I will admit that I thought it was his, but I knew that a bad game in the SECCG could ruin it. Folks today have a 10 second memory. What Tua did all season long was washed away during that game. But it is what it is. Tua will win, or he won't. Turn the page.
 

deliveryman35

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We all know the stats. The bottom line is Tua had a horrible showing statistically on the biggest and last stage that he had available to him. Instead of wrapping it up, his last performance threw it into doubt, kind of like Colt McCoy did back in 2009.
The good news is he will have another shot next year, and I wouldn’t trade him for anybody coming back next season.

If we gave credit for injuries, then Archie Manning would have still won it in 1970.
 

B1GTide

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We all know the stats. The bottom line is Tua had a horrible showing statistically on the biggest and last stage that he had available to him. Instead of wrapping it up, his last performance threw it into doubt, kind of like Colt McCoy did back in 2009.
The good news is he will have another shot next year, and I wouldn’t trade him for anybody coming back next season.

If we gave credit for injuries, then Archie Manning would have still won it in 1970.
If he loses it will not be because of the last game or the injury. It will be because no one got out there and told his story. His stats need a narrative because they are skewed. But let's be clear - he is the best player in America.
 

KrAzY3

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Well..... I’m just going to stop since you can’t let your biases and disappointments over what has been a secondary trophy to Bama fans give way to a meaningful discussion.

I told you long ago that Tua had very room for error but you and the majority on this board would have none of it, but here we are hoping Tua wins as an underdog instead of a favorite. Sorry you can’t accept the reality of heisman voting has finally become clear even with crimson colored glasses on and our QB’s chances aren’t very favorable.
I accept that Tua is extremely unlikely to win.

I don't accept any drivel that claims what Murray's performance is comparable to Tua's. It's not. That's fact, Murray didn't face anywhere near the defenses that Tua faced and he darn sure didn't do it injured. That's fact, that's reality, and if someone else gets that wrong, that's on them and not me.

This is most likely going to be another trophy for Oklahoma quarterbacks, I get that. Eli was still more worthy, Tebow was more worthy, and Tua is more worthy. But that isn't really what the trophy is about.
 
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81usaf92

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I accept that Tua is extremely unlikely to win.

I don't accept any drivel that claims what Murray's performance is comparable to Tua's. It's not. That's fact, Murray didn't face anywhere near the defenses that Tua faced and he darn sure didn't do it injured. That's fact, that's reality, and if someone else gets that wrong, that's on them and not me.

This is most likely going to be another trophy for Oklahoma quarterbacks, I get that. Eli was still more worthy, Tebow was more worthy, and Tua is more worthy. But that isn't really what the trophy is about.
Accept whatever fact or alternate reality you want to, but it still doesn’t change the fact Kyler Murray is deserving of consideration of the Heisman Trophy. Your bias towards Tua is understandable but if at some point you have to accept there are other people besides Tua playing really great football too. Yeah it sucks that an injury and a bad game might have done him in, but at some point you need to let your conspiracy theories go of why Tua isn’t going to win.

You knew what heisman voters were like but chose to believe differently. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee Hell they could’ve chose another Winston or another deplorable. At least Kyler is a standup guy having a phenomenal year. If Tua couldn’t win it, I honestly can’t think of a better person to win it.
 

Ole Man Dan

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In the Big 12, Quarterbacking is like playing catch...

No real defenses...
No big beefy Linebackers with blood in their eyes chasing a QB,
hoping to drive them into the dirt. (That happens in the SEC)
 

selmaborntidefan

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Let's all be honest with ourselves: 90% of the Heismans awarded have been, well, kind of like national championships VOTED on but not played for: media created jokes to validate pre-existing opinions.

Assume if you will that we beat UGA last January without Tua at QB. Guess what? Aside from the reality that Tua probably transfers, he's not even a Heisman contender entering this season. And that's the thing. Most of these awards begin with the hype of "X is the front-runner for the Heisman" and the news is reported through that prism. If Tua was not on the field last January and kicking off this year with all the hype, Kyler Murray could already have gone over his speech a dozen times.

There have been VERY FEW Heisman winners that didn't begin with "he's the likely winner." I will give credit in that those are slanted more towards the last 20 years. The first I can recall winning without an orchestrated media campaign was Barry Sanders in 1988. But here is how the DAC tends to award Heismans:

1) Can we give it to anyone from Notre Dame?

And if you don't believe me just consider the fact that Manti Teo deserved absolutely ZERO consideration for the award but, hey, Notre Dame something something. This is why Tim Brown, who was a great player, got an award he had no business getting. Don MacPherson of Syracuse - in 1987 - did the exact same thing Vinny Testaverde did in 1986. He led the nation in passing and his team was undefeated. But the poor fella did not play for Notre Dame so, well, not that good.

And while Rocket Ismail may have been the runner-up in 1990 (and during the 91 Orange Bowl the insinuation he deserved it), Colorado's Mike Prichard had better stats but no hype. Guess who finished higher?

2) Can we give it to a USC tailback?

3) Does the Big Ten have a viable candidate?

4) Is there a senior who has had a great career? (aka the Doug Flutie Award)

This one has kind of gone by the wayside as guys bolt to the NFL early and the Heisman, never given to anyone below a junior until Tim Tebow in 2007, was opened up to all players and not just upperclassmen.

5) Can we create a new narrative?

This is how Steve McNair got consideration he absolutely did not deserve (more on this in a moment).

6) Who is the best player on the nation's best team?

This is the other fallback criteria, and it's how Gino Torretta won a trophy he should never have even been invited to NYC to get.

=================================

Now, I don't disagree with the main thrust of the OP. It SHOULD matter who you play, which is why the fact Steve McNair got any consideration at all is an utter farce. Make no mistake: McNair was a good quarterback who went on to a rather successful NFL career, but even considering a guy who played at a Division I-AA school was a disgusting joke since MOST of the players who went there weren't good enough to compete at the (now) FBS level in the first place. (Yes, Walter Payton and Jerry Rice and McNair are rare exceptions, which is precisely the point). The 655 voters who put his name on the ballot should have been stripped of voting privileges as the division between two Penn State stars on an unbeaten team (Kerry Collins and Ki-Jana Carter) plus McNair handed the award to another undeserving winner, the late Rashaan Salaam. (And I had nothing against Salaam, but he basically benefited from a vote split).

It's also why Gordie Lockbaum of Holy Cross (5th in 1986 and 3rd in 1987) merited no consideration whatsoever. Sure they went undefeated - who wouldn't have against their schedule? Lockbaum got a lot of ink as a two-way player.


But there's another elephant in the room (if you'll pardon the metaphor): Murray is a senior and Tua isn't. Game over. Indeed, more than once the voting has done this, made a guy wait because "he'll have another chance next year." And it is a simple fact that the voters are turned on by offensive numbers REGARDLESS of the level of competition. We can complain about this, but it's true.


I guess the reason I reached the "who cares" point is because I've lived through too many of these things. In 1980, a HS recruit walked onto the field for Georgia and had one of the most dazzling seasons I've ever seen anyone have. In the context of his time, Herschel Walker should have won the Heisman in a rout. He finished third in the nation in rushing (behind George Rogers of South Carolina and Stump Mitchell of the Citadel - oh and Mitchell got ZERO consideration for the Heisman btw), and his team was the SEC champions and undefeated (and eventual national champions). His team also beat Rogers's head to head, he outpeformed Rogers in the game, and Rogers made a key fumble that cost his team the ballgame, 13-10.

Walker not only didn't win - he finished THIRD behind a defensive guy, Hugh Green of Pitt.


In 1983, a running back at Nebraska ran up some colossal numbers against some terrible defenses while an SEC running back had a very good year with one less game and one of the toughest schedules ever created. In fact, the yards per carry was only in favor of the Nebraska guy by 7.8 to 7.7. Yet Mike Rozier had his Heisman speech ready on Halloween and Bo Jackson did not even finish in the Top Ten. The funny thing is this: switch teams with the guys and Auburn drops to a 3-loss team and Nebraska is still undefeated. But Bo didn't have the yardage and Bo wasn't a senior so Bo knows rejection. (Had Bo played for Notre Dame, he would not have won in 1983, but he would have finished 2nd with the same stats).

In 1984, we were treated to the media at is most shallow. Doug Flutie won the Heisman Trophy in the "senior who had a great career" category. Look at these numbers and tell me:

Candidate A: 246 for 423 and 3634 yards, 30 TD/13 INT
Candidate B: 283 for 458 (37 more completions in 35 more passes) and 3875 yards, 33 TD/11 INT

Now.......is there any way under the sun that Candidate B isn't eminently superior to Candidate A?

What if I told you Candidate B's team was the ONLY undefeated team and wound up winning the national title while Candidate A's team lost two games? Candidate B led the nation in completions, attempts, yards, and TDs.

But because:
a) Candidate A was a short, good-looking guy who
b) had a 'Heisman moment'
c) played in the East

he won the Heisman Trophy. It was a "feel good" story.

Meanwhile, the guy with better stats who got no hype and played for a team nobody saw play in the mountains of Utah at a religious school......ho hum.


(And if anyone is going to go for the "but the schedule" argument, Doug Flutie played ONE team that ended the year in the Top 20, 8-5 Miami who was only ranked because they started at #1).

The FACT is that neither guy faced a formidable schedule but one had clearly superior numbers and played on a national champion - but didn't get the hype. Let's face it: Boston is a major media center very close to the ESPN studios and Provo isn't.

I have to go to work, but I could multiply these types of inconsistent voting jokes.
 

81usaf92

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Let's all be honest with ourselves: 90% of the Heismans awarded have been, well, kind of like national championships VOTED on but not played for: media created jokes to validate pre-existing opinions.

Assume if you will that we beat UGA last January without Tua at QB. Guess what? Aside from the reality that Tua probably transfers, he's not even a Heisman contender entering this season. And that's the thing. Most of these awards begin with the hype of "X is the front-runner for the Heisman" and the news is reported through that prism. If Tua was not on the field last January and kicking off this year with all the hype, Kyler Murray could already have gone over his speech a dozen times.

There have been VERY FEW Heisman winners that didn't begin with "he's the likely winner." I will give credit in that those are slanted more towards the last 20 years. The first I can recall winning without an orchestrated media campaign was Barry Sanders in 1988. But here is how the DAC tends to award Heismans:

1) Can we give it to anyone from Notre Dame?

And if you don't believe me just consider the fact that Manti Teo deserved absolutely ZERO consideration for the award but, hey, Notre Dame something something. This is why Tim Brown, who was a great player, got an award he had no business getting. Don MacPherson of Syracuse - in 1987 - did the exact same thing Vinny Testaverde did in 1986. He led the nation in passing and his team was undefeated. But the poor fella did not play for Notre Dame so, well, not that good.

And while Rocket Ismail may have been the runner-up in 1990 (and during the 91 Orange Bowl the insinuation he deserved it), Colorado's Mike Prichard had better stats but no hype. Guess who finished higher?

2) Can we give it to a USC tailback?

3) Does the Big Ten have a viable candidate?

4) Is there a senior who has had a great career? (aka the Doug Flutie Award)

This one has kind of gone by the wayside as guys bolt to the NFL early and the Heisman, never given to anyone below a junior until Tim Tebow in 2007, was opened up to all players and not just upperclassmen.

5) Can we create a new narrative?

This is how Steve McNair got consideration he absolutely did not deserve (more on this in a moment).

6) Who is the best player on the nation's best team?

This is the other fallback criteria, and it's how Gino Torretta won a trophy he should never have even been invited to NYC to get.

=================================

Now, I don't disagree with the main thrust of the OP. It SHOULD matter who you play, which is why the fact Steve McNair got any consideration at all is an utter farce. Make no mistake: McNair was a good quarterback who went on to a rather successful NFL career, but even considering a guy who played at a Division I-AA school was a disgusting joke since MOST of the players who went there weren't good enough to compete at the (now) FBS level in the first place. (Yes, Walter Payton and Jerry Rice and McNair are rare exceptions, which is precisely the point). The 655 voters who put his name on the ballot should have been stripped of voting privileges as the division between two Penn State stars on an unbeaten team (Kerry Collins and Ki-Jana Carter) plus McNair handed the award to another undeserving winner, the late Rashaan Salaam. (And I had nothing against Salaam, but he basically benefited from a vote split).

It's also why Gordie Lockbaum of Holy Cross (5th in 1986 and 3rd in 1987) merited no consideration whatsoever. Sure they went undefeated - who wouldn't have against their schedule? Lockbaum got a lot of ink as a two-way player.


But there's another elephant in the room (if you'll pardon the metaphor): Murray is a senior and Tua isn't. Game over. Indeed, more than once the voting has done this, made a guy wait because "he'll have another chance next year." And it is a simple fact that the voters are turned on by offensive numbers REGARDLESS of the level of competition. We can complain about this, but it's true.


I guess the reason I reached the "who cares" point is because I've lived through too many of these things. In 1980, a HS recruit walked onto the field for Georgia and had one of the most dazzling seasons I've ever seen anyone have. In the context of his time, Herschel Walker should have won the Heisman in a rout. He finished third in the nation in rushing (behind George Rogers of South Carolina and Stump Mitchell of the Citadel - oh and Mitchell got ZERO consideration for the Heisman btw), and his team was the SEC champions and undefeated (and eventual national champions). His team also beat Rogers's head to head, he outpeformed Rogers in the game, and Rogers made a key fumble that cost his team the ballgame, 13-10.

Walker not only didn't win - he finished THIRD behind a defensive guy, Hugh Green of Pitt.


In 1983, a running back at Nebraska ran up some colossal numbers against some terrible defenses while an SEC running back had a very good year with one less game and one of the toughest schedules ever created. In fact, the yards per carry was only in favor of the Nebraska guy by 7.8 to 7.7. Yet Mike Rozier had his Heisman speech ready on Halloween and Bo Jackson did not even finish in the Top Ten. The funny thing is this: switch teams with the guys and Auburn drops to a 3-loss team and Nebraska is still undefeated. But Bo didn't have the yardage and Bo wasn't a senior so Bo knows rejection. (Had Bo played for Notre Dame, he would not have won in 1983, but he would have finished 2nd with the same stats).

In 1984, we were treated to the media at is most shallow. Doug Flutie won the Heisman Trophy in the "senior who had a great career" category. Look at these numbers and tell me:

Candidate A: 246 for 423 and 3634 yards, 30 TD/13 INT
Candidate B: 283 for 458 (37 more completions in 35 more passes) and 3875 yards, 33 TD/11 INT

Now.......is there any way under the sun that Candidate B isn't eminently superior to Candidate A?

What if I told you Candidate B's team was the ONLY undefeated team and wound up winning the national title while Candidate A's team lost two games? Candidate B led the nation in completions, attempts, yards, and TDs.

But because:
a) Candidate A was a short, good-looking guy who
b) had a 'Heisman moment'
c) played in the East

he won the Heisman Trophy. It was a "feel good" story.

Meanwhile, the guy with better stats who got no hype and played for a team nobody saw play in the mountains of Utah at a religious school......ho hum.


(And if anyone is going to go for the "but the schedule" argument, Doug Flutie played ONE team that ended the year in the Top 20, 8-5 Miami who was only ranked because they started at #1).

The FACT is that neither guy faced a formidable schedule but one had clearly superior numbers and played on a national champion - but didn't get the hype. Let's face it: Boston is a major media center very close to the ESPN studios and Provo isn't.

I have to go to work, but I could multiply these types of inconsistent voting jokes.
Even though I despise Peyton Manning, the one I can’t get around is him losing it to Charles Woodson.
 

BayouBama75

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Much was made of Tua not playing in the 4th quarter but he had some games he didn't even finish the 2nd quarter . Also I think his early ankle injury had a lot to do with his poor stats on Saturday.
 

KrAzY3

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Accept whatever fact or alternate reality you want to, but it still doesn’t change the fact Kyler Murray is deserving of consideration of the Heisman Trophy.
Consideration? Yes. Winning? No. And you can claim it's alternate reality to say Tua faced much better defenses, but that's actual reality. That's just plain old reality.
 

81usaf92

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Consideration? Yes. Winning? No. And you can claim it's alternate reality to say Tua faced much better defenses, but that's actual reality. That's just plain old reality.
Again I told you, and told you this is an individual award and a stat award, and that Tua has a very very very low margin of error. But you and the majority of this board just wont accept those simple facts that this award has. Tua needed either to have 12-13 great games, or to show the team couldnt live without them. The fact that Tua had a horrible game mixed with Jalen hurts winning the game pretty much ended Tua's strangled hold on the heisman.

Should Tua win the heisman? sure, but he has had less than heisman performances vs his 3 best opponents so this isnt a clear runaway.

Is Kyler deserving of the award? Yes. I think to say otherwise is just bias.

If I had a vote I would vote Tua, but my point in this is that giving Kyler the trophy isnt egregious or a conspiracy against Alabama quarterbacks like you think.
 
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KrAzY3

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If I had a vote I would vote Tua, but my point in this is that giving Kyler the trophy isnt egregious or a conspiracy against Alabama quarterbacks like you think.
I tire of specious statements. I know what the award is in its current state, and it's a joke. They can get it right or they can get it wrong, and you've argued at length about why they will, and sadly to some extent why you think they should get it wrong.

You dodged the Eli discussion, because we both know the truth there. Jason White was no Eli Manning and his impact on college football was not Eli Manning's impact. The year Eli finished third, Eli was a demonstrably better player having a demonstrably bigger impact on his team. White won because Heisman voters do what Heisman voters do, they go for the big stats, which is what Oklahoma quarterbacks, Heupel, White, Bradford, Mayfield and Murray put up. None of those have proven to be great quarterbacks mind you, but who cares about greatness? This award isn't about greatness, it's about empty stats right? That's why an SEC player can't win it unless he has huge rushing numbers, because the SEC isn't the Big 12 and you can't feast on weak defenses and put up Big 12 passing numbers in the SEC.

Any idiot who understands football knows who Tua is the better football player, just like they knew Eli was the better football player. Any idiot also knows that Tua's performances relative to the competition were better. He did basically just as well, against better defenses. That's simple math at that point, equal performance against better defenses=better season. But that takes one extra step a lot of morons are incapable of.

That's not even getting into Tua's injury! He played against Georgia on an injury requiring surgery, but do we hear any talk about that? Nope, because Heisman voters only really care about stats. Nothing else matters. That's why Oklahoma QBs have all those Heismans. Not because they were the best, the most important, the most excellent performances or any of that. It's because they put up big stats playing against weak defenses, and thus is shall forever be if people continue to think in such simplistic, ignorant, ill-informed ways such as those you have been a proponent of.
 
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81usaf92

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. I know what the award is in its current state, and it's a joke.
.
If you understand that then why all the butt hurt? You knew what it took, and Tua didnt come through on Saturday.


You dodged the Eli discussion, because we both know the truth there. Jason White was no Eli Manning and his impact on college football was not Eli Manning's impact. The year Eli finished third, Eli was a demonstrably better player having a demonstrably bigger impact on his team. White won because Heisman voters do what Heisman voters do, they go for the big stats, which is what Oklahoma quarterbacks, Heupel, White, Bradford, Mayfield and Murray put up. None of those have proven to be great quarterbacks mind you, but who cares about greatness? This award isn't about greatness, it's about empty stats right? That's why an SEC player can't win it unless he has huge rushing numbers, because the SEC isn't the Big 12 and you can't feast on weak defenses and put up Big 12 passing numbers in the SEC.
.
I didnt dodge it, I thought it was a dumb argument to begin with. Eli Manning was not as good as his stats were, and anyone who ACTUALLY looks at Ole Miss's schedule that year would know that. Maybe instead of sucking against Memphis, Eli might have had a chance.


Any idiot who understands football knows who Tua is the better football player, just like they knew Eli was the better football player. Any idiot also knows that Tua's performances relative to the competition were better. He did basically just as well, against better defenses. That's simple math at that point, equal performance against better defenses=better season. But that takes one extra step a lot of morons are incapable of.

.
Again Memphis vs KSU. Any moron can see you probably can get away with a bad loss to a respectable opponent compared to a horrid day against a bad opponent added with 2 other losses.

That's not even getting into Tua's injury! He played against Georgia on an injury requiring surgery, but do we hear any talk about that? Nope, because Heisman voters only really care about stats. Nothing else matters. That's why Oklahoma QBs have all those Heismans. Not because they were the best, the most important, the most excellent performances or any of that. It's because they put up big stats playing against weak defenses, and thus is shall forever be if people continue to think in such simplistic, ignorant, ill-informed ways such as those you have been a proponent of.
Again there is a difference between how things "ARE" and "SHOULD BE". Im terribly sorry that you finally have to wake up and face reality, but Ive been telling you from the start of what is going to happen should Tua slip, but you just couldnt swallow that pill.

In terms of how things "ARE": Kyler should win the heisman if Tua doesnt

In terms of how things "SHOULD BE" Tua should win the heisman going away.
 

KrAzY3

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Im terribly sorry that you finally have to wake up and face reality
If only I'd written something prior to the start of the season about how Oklahoma is favored by voters and alluded to the Heisman trophy as an example. Oh wait, I did. You can even read back on my old posts, throughout the season I've said Murray and Haskins were the primary threats (voters like Ohio State to), and you can also find where I've consistently pulled for those guys to lose to widen the path.

I've always argued here about how I think things should be. That doesn't make me naive.
In terms of how things "SHOULD BE" Tua should win the heisman going away.
You sure do argue a lot on the subject considering we have agreement on that.
 
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bamaltc

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Tua had the opportunity for his moment on our first possession of the SECCG. If he had thrown a dart for a TD to start that game instead of the INT, the narrative would have swung his way and that game would have swung a much different direction.
 

81usaf92

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If only I'd written something prior to the start of the season about how Oklahoma is favored by voters and alluded to the Heisman trophy as an example. Oh wait, I did. You can even read back on my old posts, throughout the season I've said Murray and Haskins were the primary threats (voters like Ohio State to), and you can also find where I've consistently pulled for those guys to lose to widen the path.

I've always argued here about how I think things should be. That doesn't make me naive.

You sure do argue a lot on the subject considering we have agreement on that.
My only objection(s) I have with your point(s) are that :

1) Kyler Murrary isnt egregiously being awarded (assuming that he wins) considering the parameters that the Heisman voting typically goes. Point is this isnt Woodson vs Manning 2.0

2) Oklahoma qbs arent getting the benefit of the doubt in every case. I think the only time I think a strong case can be made that it was, was in 2008. But then again Tebow just won the heisman the year before, and Bradford had an extra game than Colt. I think the Manning vs White isnt as close as you try to make it. Manning had a horrible day vs Memphis, and LSU. White went through several ranked teams and had a bad day vs KSU. I think White deserved it.

Had Tua thrown maybe 1 more td and hit 250 yards then he probably wins it even with an off game.
 

KrAzY3

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Point is this isnt Woodson vs Manning 2.0.
I guess I can try to remember the post I made (elsewhere) around the start of the season. If I recall correctly it was concerning Alabama becoming the team with the most pre-season #1 votes.

That kind of bothered me. It was just happening? Who was #2 and #3? So I looked and it was Ohio State and Oklahoma, barely behind Alabama. So I made a response going over the fact that this was typical voter bias (not conspiracy just bias). We know where their heart is, when they vote with their hearts they're going to vote for Ohio State and Oklahoma. Despite the fact that Alabama has 11 AP titles, Oklahoma has 8, and Ohio State has 5, as far as voters were concerned on any given year they couldn't tell the difference.

This went even further with the more subjective Heisman voting. Ohio State 7, Oklahoma 6, Alabama...2.

When the voters get to choose, they really do not give Alabama the respect they deserve. Does it mean it always has to be egregious? No, but the best program in the history of college football doesn't really get that level of respect from voters. And, I do take exception to it.

Oklahoma qbs arent getting the benefit of the doubt in every case.
If Murray wins, I think that is a compelling evidence they do at least some of the time. I mean we can go over case by case, and I could make the counter argument for each. It doesn't mean Oklahoma shouldn't win any, but I'm just saying definitively they darn sure shouldn't win all of those four. Tua winning would have gone a long way towards righting the ship in terms of Alabama not getting due respect in Heisman voting. Tua losing would send the opposite message.
 

B1GTide

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Should Tua win the heisman? sure, but he has had less than heisman performances vs his 3 best opponents
Wait, What? What, exactly, is a Heisman performance? Oh, you mean that he didn't put up amazing stats for a whole bunch of reasons totally out of his control? You mean that his competition for this award didn't face those same circumstances so had a cake walk during that time period, and the result is that Murray DID have Heisman performances in those games?

Tua is the best player in the country. That is all that matters. This other stuff is a long list of excuses to give the award to someone else.
 

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