We’re really comparing a QB who lit defenses up so bad he doesn’t play the 4th quarter versus a QB who HAS to score because his defense is so terrible? Facts are facts! Tua deserves the Heisman period!
Why defense should matter in the Heisman race
- Thread starter UAinAthens
- Start date
"Kyler Murray is The Associated Press college football Player of the Year, the second straight Oklahoma quarterback and fifth overall to win the award since it was established in 1998."
Remember, there have only been 7 full time starting QBs at Oklahoma since then, so that's 5 out of 7. For the record, Alabama has 0, they've been too busy winning championships I suppose.
"Murray received 39 first-place votes and a total of 145 points. Tagovailoa received 13 first-place votes (117 points)"
Not surprising, but absolutely disgusting. No way on earth Murray deserved 3 times as many first place votes, but hey 5th Oklahoma QB since Stoops arrived. Nothing to see here, move right along.
Remember, there have only been 7 full time starting QBs at Oklahoma since then, so that's 5 out of 7. For the record, Alabama has 0, they've been too busy winning championships I suppose.
"Murray received 39 first-place votes and a total of 145 points. Tagovailoa received 13 first-place votes (117 points)"
Not surprising, but absolutely disgusting. No way on earth Murray deserved 3 times as many first place votes, but hey 5th Oklahoma QB since Stoops arrived. Nothing to see here, move right along.
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I guess there's too much anti Bama sentiment among the AP. An Alabama player has never been chosen for that award. They passed over both Mark Ingram and Derrick Henry the years those guys won the Heisman.
Disgusting and Murray shoulnt be used in the same paragraph. The dude is a class act, and would be a great addition to the Heisman fraternity if Tua doesnt win it. Disappointed would be more appropriate.
There is a bigger prize that Tua can get from Murray on the 29th, and I would much prefer him to get that than a trophy that is probably 3rd on the Bama wish list at best.
We both know I wasn't using that term in regards to Murray personally, besides the Heisman isn't a character award at all.
The term disgusting has everything to do with the voting patterns I alluded to before I saw the AP results, but which confirmed everything I've been saying all along. There's a ton of bias. Those types of voters are what ruins the Heisman voting process by the way.
Just look at what they've done not just this year but in years past. They've never given it to an Alabama player! Not Ingram, not Henry, not Tua! They have however given it to five different Oklahoma quarterbacks. That's just ridiculous and while I expect Murray to win, it will be closer but those voters will likely be the difference. Those voters that year after year refuse to vote for players on certain teams, but don't mind giving it to players on the same team on the same position in the same offense the award year after year as though the system isn't largely responsible for the numbers.
Let's all be honest with ourselves:
1) Kyler Murray is PROBABLY going to win the Heisman Trophy this year.
2) He is NOT "undeserving" of the award.
My Tide bona fides are unquestioned but in regard to the OP there's a problem. Let's assume that the objection "hey, Murray didn't face the defenses that Tua did," which is true. You now have to weigh what Tua ACTUALLY DID against the top defenses he faced.
LSU - 25 for 42, 275 yards, 2 TD/ 1 INT
MSU - 14 for 21, 164 yards, 1 TD/1 INT
UGA - 10 for 25, 164 yards, 1 TD/2 INT
In other words, the VERY EVIDENCE we're being told should be the difference maker IS the difference maker. Against these great defenses Tua's numbers were somewhat less than spectacular.
And we can speculate "oh, but he didn't play the fourth quarter and his numbers would be X," which is true, but it is also irrelevant. Heismans aren't awarded on the basis of what someone MIGHT have done any more than we calculate Gale Sayers's yards in his brief NFL career and say, "But if he'd played a 16-game schedule......"
Now, the whole Heisman moment thing, well, anyone who says that is a TV era based idiot who needs shot out of a cannon (looking right at you, Danny Kanell).
1) Kyler Murray is PROBABLY going to win the Heisman Trophy this year.
2) He is NOT "undeserving" of the award.
My Tide bona fides are unquestioned but in regard to the OP there's a problem. Let's assume that the objection "hey, Murray didn't face the defenses that Tua did," which is true. You now have to weigh what Tua ACTUALLY DID against the top defenses he faced.
LSU - 25 for 42, 275 yards, 2 TD/ 1 INT
MSU - 14 for 21, 164 yards, 1 TD/1 INT
UGA - 10 for 25, 164 yards, 1 TD/2 INT
In other words, the VERY EVIDENCE we're being told should be the difference maker IS the difference maker. Against these great defenses Tua's numbers were somewhat less than spectacular.
And we can speculate "oh, but he didn't play the fourth quarter and his numbers would be X," which is true, but it is also irrelevant. Heismans aren't awarded on the basis of what someone MIGHT have done any more than we calculate Gale Sayers's yards in his brief NFL career and say, "But if he'd played a 16-game schedule......"
Now, the whole Heisman moment thing, well, anyone who says that is a TV era based idiot who needs shot out of a cannon (looking right at you, Danny Kanell).
I saw the comment last night but....how would you like to be one of the playoff teams facing Alabama after the team feels snubbed over the Heisman and is looking for someone to take it out on?
Woah woah woah..... Why are we selectively leaving AU off the list of Very Good/Great Defenses he faced??
Scoring Defense Ranks:
L8U - #22
MSU - #1
AU - #18
UGA - #15
LSU - 25 for 42 (60%) 295 yards, 2 TD's and 1 INT w/ 49 Yards Rushing and 1 TD *with a brace on his leg*
MSU - 14 for 21 (66%) 164 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT *got knocked out of the game/injury*
AU - 25 for 32 (78%) 324 yards 5 TD's and 0 INT w/ 26 Yards Rushing and 1 TD
UGA - 10 for 25, (40%) 164 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT *got knocked out of the game/injury*
Totals: 74 of 120 (62%) 947 yards (237 YPG) 11 TD's (9 Pass/2 Rush) and 4 INT's
During that entire stretch he was only 90-100% healthy for the AU game. L8U and MSU both tried to injure him.
He played GREAT against both L8U and AU and was efficient in the MSU game before having to leave.
It has only been the UGA game that he had a bad performance through a cocktail of injuries and uncharacteristic WR drops.
Meanwhile Kyler Murray only faced ONE Top 25 Defense all season.
Scoring Defense Ranks:
L8U - #22
MSU - #1
AU - #18
UGA - #15
LSU - 25 for 42 (60%) 295 yards, 2 TD's and 1 INT w/ 49 Yards Rushing and 1 TD *with a brace on his leg*
MSU - 14 for 21 (66%) 164 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT *got knocked out of the game/injury*
AU - 25 for 32 (78%) 324 yards 5 TD's and 0 INT w/ 26 Yards Rushing and 1 TD
UGA - 10 for 25, (40%) 164 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT *got knocked out of the game/injury*
Totals: 74 of 120 (62%) 947 yards (237 YPG) 11 TD's (9 Pass/2 Rush) and 4 INT's
During that entire stretch he was only 90-100% healthy for the AU game. L8U and MSU both tried to injure him.
He played GREAT against both L8U and AU and was efficient in the MSU game before having to leave.
It has only been the UGA game that he had a bad performance through a cocktail of injuries and uncharacteristic WR drops.
Meanwhile Kyler Murray only faced ONE Top 25 Defense all season.
I'm not "selectively" anything.
It isn't the great game he had against Auburn that cost him the Heisman. It's the MSU and UGA game.
And "he wasn't healthy" sounds a lot like "If Colt hadn't got hurt" to my consistent ears.
There are more guys who would have won the Heisman if they hadn't got hurt than there are actual Heisman winners.
Also - LSU's numbers took a major hit when they gave up 74 points to ATM. Their defense is better than Auburrn's.
Yes... you are.
Tua faced basically 4 Top 20 defenses in 5 games and while hurt/injured STILL accounted for 1,000+ Total yards and 11 TD's
I'm saying he played well (except UGA) in spite of his injuries and stiffer competition.
Meanwhile Murray only played ONE defense with a pulse.... Army.
The UGA game might cost him the Heisman but his entire body of work blows Murray away when context is applied.
I will say this, everyone was way too quick to forget Tua's performance against Auburn. He dismantled a very good defense in a very important game there and now it is like it didn't even happen.
LSU's numbers are skewed due to all those overtimes, but the point is valid that Tua managed to hang with Murray (and let's forget the injury) despite both playing a lot less (the times he stayed in longer were against the better defenses, skewing his numbers downward) and playing significantly better defenses.
That should have made it an easy choice.
LSU's numbers are skewed due to all those overtimes, but the point is valid that Tua managed to hang with Murray (and let's forget the injury) despite both playing a lot less (the times he stayed in longer were against the better defenses, skewing his numbers downward) and playing significantly better defenses.
That should have made it an easy choice.
Dude, I've here for eighteen years and you are the first person in the history of Tide Fans to accuse me of selectivity.
1,000 yards in five games is an average of 200 yards passing per game.
How many quarterbacks in college average that?
Sam Ehlinger of Texas averages 240 yards per game passing.
Is he a Heisman candidate?
And once again...the "hurt" argument doesn't matter.
Even the "but he only played three quarters" argument doesn't matter - although that should be given more credence if we're going to blast teams for running up the score.
I haven't argued against any of this.....
But I never said it didn't.
I explained why the OP provides the evidence AGAINST Tua.
"Oh, but he played tougher defenses!"
But he didn't do enough against those tougher defenses IN THE MINDS OF THE VOTERS (most likely). That's all I'm saying.
It is true, unfortunately, that voters over-value eye-popping offensive stats. And B1G is correct - if the question is the BEST player then it's Tua.
But if it's the "contributed the most to his team's success" or "MVP" argument then it's Kyler.
Oh and one more thing: If Kyler Murray had the exact same stats at Texas Tech or Iowa State.......he'd finish fourth or fifth. It's the fact he's playing for Oklahoma that's likely to put him over Tua - not even the stats themselves.
The thing that annoys me is the simple fact that Murray could not produce those stats anywhere else. Also, was he really that valuable to his team? I mean, Mayfield put up stats similar to his 2 years in a row before he came along. They could have won just as many games with any number of QBs in college football this year. I think that Haskins, Grier, Tua, Fromm, Lawrence, etc. could have put up very similar number in that offense, in that conference.
Just to make the numbers more credible in regards to who played when/how much, can someone run their stats based off passing yards per quarter played? (Which the 3 or 4 passes Tua threw in 4th quarters is going to skew his a bit I’d assume).
One thing that I think that will go in Murray’s favor is the running stats. He’s got quite a bit if I’m not mistaken. We all know Tua can run, he just doesn’t as much. Then there was the dinged knee so he was somewhat immobile for a while.
One thing that I think that will go in Murray’s favor is the running stats. He’s got quite a bit if I’m not mistaken. We all know Tua can run, he just doesn’t as much. Then there was the dinged knee so he was somewhat immobile for a while.
Oklahoma was 12-2 last year. They should be 12-2 this year. But yeah, people will keep preaching they absolutely, positively, could not do it without Murray.
If we're going to include those, then you have to work this in somehow as well: Snaps played: Murray 807, Tua 588 (and yes Selma you have to include that to, average yards matter relative to snaps/attempts).
I presume if you hash the numbers out you'll see that Tua was every bit as effective offensively, yes including running as Murray while playing tougher defenses.
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I'm not accusing.....I'm pointing out that you selectively left out AU when they have a Top 20 defense and that just happened to be his best game All season. His LSU game was probably his 2nd Best. That's 2 Top 20 Defenses he went off on.
You can't just pick LSU, MSU (skip AU) and go to UGA.
Plus I said his faced 4 Top 20 defenses and had 1,000 yards and 11 TD's against THEM in 4 games. 250 per game and 2.75 TD's per game.
I left Citadel out because we are talking about Very Good Defenses.
If we're just going to pick lowest production games, Murray has games of 165 and 213 against two of the better defenses he faced.
I read this on an OU board:
For those who think we run too tight a ship here, that remark was made by an "Administrator"...
I love how all fans of other schools say Alabama fans are inbred. We all marry our cousins and we all have dirt floors. In case you didn’t know. 
I mean it’s like their only argument because they can’t stand we win all the time.
I mean it’s like their only argument because they can’t stand we win all the time.
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