News Article: The balkanization of America...

TIDE-HSV

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I think this entire discussion is funny when we created an entire other nonsports for ultimately the same reason. These people are so brainwashed that they had to get their own board so they could effectively hide from reality even in this tiny little corner of the world
I've rarely read a more absurd statement. I guess you'll have to include me in your pejorative. In fact, many days, I bypass this board entirely because I get enough of the constant argument from other sources and I'm just tired up the ass of it. Most of the demand for the new board did not come from people generally on the right at all. Most of it came from people who just get damned sick and tired of discussing politics 24/7, which you apparently lament. And it's doing well, by the way. Now, the public discussion of site policy is at an end here - understand? Do not post it here. You got a problem, address it with me via PM...
 

CharminTide

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Not sure why you are responding to a blue post not directed at you. But, ok. Apparently you agree that both major parties are horrible piles of crap. Pleasantly surprised you're not a petty tribalist who believes one party is good, while the other is bad. Cool indeed.
Of course both parties have gerrymandered. And of course it's wrong and undemocratic no matter the perpetrator. But I honestly think everyone in this thread has said as much in the past, so it's not clear to me who you are targeting. Folks here have been petty tribalists on all manner of issues, but I actually think this is one we pretty much all agree on.
 

CharminTide

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I really do not think so.
Which point are you disputing, that Republicans oppose Democratic policy or that Democrats gerrymander?
And there it is again.

To break it down for you, I don't think gerrymandered elections reflect the will of the people. It's a process whereby representatives select their voters rather than voters selecting their representatives. The North Carolina district maps are so partisan that their supreme court found them in violation of the state constitution. To claim that the representatives elected via gerrymandered boundaries reflect the will of the electorate is absurd. To claim that their mandate is equal to or even supersedes the non-gerrymandered office of governor is obtuse. And to ignore the context and intent of the legislature reallocating power away from a branch of government their party just lost is willfully blind.

Today's GOP is playing the kind of systemic political hardball that's simply bad for the country. If the transition of power is going to be this combative every few years, it risks spinning out of control.
 

Tidewater

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To break it down for you, I don't think gerrymandered elections reflect the will of the people. It's a process whereby representatives select their voters rather than voters selecting their representatives. The North Carolina district maps are so partisan that their supreme court found them in violation of the state constitution.
Same thing with the Democrats in Maryland.
To claim that the representatives elected via gerrymandered boundaries reflect the will of the electorate is absurd. To claim that their mandate is equal to or even supersedes the non-gerrymandered office of governor is obtuse. And to ignore the context and intent of the legislature reallocating power away from a branch of government their party just lost is willfully blind.
I said above it is unethical, but it is not illegal or unconstitutional, and I do not see it as an attack on democracy as the Vox author argues. The legislature was elected as well. I could see a state constitutional amendment to restrict a lame duck session of the legislature enacting such a bill, unless there was some emergency (natural or security). I'm not a Wisconsin voter so it is none of my business.
I chalk this up to partisanship. Democrats see Democratic policy as natural, wise, beneficial and anyone who does anything to thwart the enactment of those policies is wrong-headed, devious, and evil. The problem is that Republicans see their policies as natural, wise, and beneficial. The Vox author seems to believe that there is no other way to look at the issues in Wisconsin than his way. Anybody who does is not wrong. They're evil. If your opponent is wrong, you can argue with him to convince him of the virtues of your position, or work towards compromise. There can be no compromising with an evil opponent.
Today's GOP is playing the kind of systemic political hardball that's simply bad for the country. If the transition of power is going to be this combative every few years, it risks spinning out of control.
Completely agree. I have drawn the analogy to the demise of the Roman republic. Two parties squared off and each party increasingly accepted the primacy of their policy over the provisions of the constitution or even the good of the country (because partisanship blinded members of both parties and they came to believe their policies were good for the country), including proscription lists and eventually murdering the consul-for-life in the Senate, which unleashed a civil war that completely swept away the last vestiges of the republic.
 
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jthomas666

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"Naked"I assume you mean "obvious" or "undisguised." Would surreptitious have been better? A lame duck session to enact a law to prevent the incoming governor from acting is almost certainly unethical. Are you accusing politicians of acting unethically?
It isn’t so much that it’s unethical (it clearly is), it’s that they’re not even attempting to hide what they’re doing. (tl;dr: DUH!)

I would say rephrasing what someone said to ridicule it is a sure sign of a defeated wit.
You could say that; you’d be wrong. Regardless, I rephrased it to point out it's absurdity—the suggestion that the people of Wisconsin elected the new governor to do something but elected the GOP legislature to keep the new governor from doing what they elected him to do. You'll note that I didn't misrepresent your point (as you misrepresented the Vox article), but instead simply highlighted the fault.

[A bunch of stuff from Mother Jones on gerrymandering in Maryland deleted]
You surely trust that Mother Jones is not biased to the right.
Not sure why you went to such trouble, particularly since I've never claimed that the Democrats don't gerrymander. But given the disparity between the popular vote and the election results, it is clear that GOP gerrymandering is disrupting elections--far more than the election fraud they love to complain about. Your view throughout this topic comes across as "well, it's legal, so I see no real reason to get upset."

I do not know why you are reacting so personally. You and I disagree on a political matter. I do not ascribe malign intent to that. You are not a bad person. In fact, I would credit your motivations to an attempt to care for the downtrodden and to help the less fortunate.
Given your use of ad hominem, you must think I am attacking you personally. I don't think that's the case. I do think that the post I responded to:

If, as the Vox author would have us believe, the issues of the governor's "ability to change state welfare policy and withdraw from a lawsuit against the Affordable Care Act" were the only issues that mattered (and those issues resulted in the Democrat winning the governor's office, why did the good people of Wisconsin elect a Republican-majority legislature?
was a major misrepresentation of the Vox article, and that further it attempted to deflect the issue by rhetorically shrugging and saying that the GOP's actions reflected the will of the people when they clearly didn't.

Am I upset? Yes. Situations like this, not to mention voter suppression (particularly in Georgia, where they didn't even try to hide what they were doing) .... me off. I'm upset with attempts to normalize such behavior, just as I was outraged by the false equivalencies that sought to normalize Trump's behavior during the 2016 campaign.

But you and I disagree, and that means differences in facts, in reasoning, or in values. I find those differences interesting.
That they are.
 

Tidewater

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In the same election in which the voters of Wisconsin elected the Democratic candidate to do "X," they also elected a Republican majority state legislature (in the previous election that elected the current lame-duck session and the same election in which they elected the Democratic governor) to do "not X."

Has Vox totaled the votes for state legislature and compared that to the votes for governor. This is getting into the realm of "Inside Baseball" of Wisconsin politics, but those data might be useful.
 
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CharminTide

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In the same election in which the voters of Wisconsin elected the Democratic candidate to do "X," they also elected a Republican majority state legislature (in the previous election that elected the current lame-duck session and the same election in which they elected the Democratic governor) to do "not X."

Has Vox totaled the votes for state legislature and compared that to the votes for governor. This is getting into the realm of "Inside Baseball" of Wisconsin politics, but those data might be useful.
House vote breakdown, WI 2018
Democratic: 1,297,949 (won 3 seats)
Republican: 1,172,964 (won 5 seats)

Senate vote breakdown, WI 2018
Democratic: 1,471,238
Republican: 1,182,928

Governor vote breakdown, WI 2018
Democratic: 1,324,307
Republican: 1,295,080

Edit: It's far more annoying to find vote tallies for the state legislature. 17 seats were up in the WI State Senate, and below is the vote tally for those. Caveat: there are a few districts where a candidate ran unopposed (from both parties), and WI evidently doesn't calculate the votes on unopposed candidates. The State Assembly had 99 seats up, but you're on your own for that.

State Senate vote breakdown, WI 2018
Democratic: 549,793 (won 6 seats)
Republican: 545,535 (won 11 seats)
 
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Valley View

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As this thread proves, both sides have evolved to a state of mutual hate. Both sides claim the other started the hate. Whether the chicken or the egg came first really doesn't matter anymore, this B.S. needs to stop and our elected need to do what's right!
 

Tidewater

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As this thread proves, both sides have evolved to a state of mutual hate. Both sides claim the other started the hate. Whether the chicken or the egg came first really doesn't matter anymore, this B.S. needs to stop and our elected need to do what's right!
That was probably the meta-narrative Earle was aiming for in the opening post.
 

Crimson1967

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I think a lame duck session going in and changing the rules is a little shifty, but I don’t see it as illegal.


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twofbyc

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I think a lame duck session going in and changing the rules is a little shifty, but I don’t see it as illegal.


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Neither is ALEC, but there’s something seriously wrong with a group (in this case right wing big money) having closed door meetings with legislators (Republican) and telling them “we’ll make sure you have enough money to get re-elected but you have to pass these laws; if you don’t we’ll primary you.”
It has been reported that, in some instances, the laws that were passed were exactly as presented by ALEC; because we know our elected legislators aren’t smart enough to write their own legislation.
Plain and simple, this is hijacking democracy.


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uafanataum

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I do not have problems with lame duck sessions. We have elections every 2 years and they are not sworn in for 2 whole months after the election. What do you want them to do, not write laws for 2 months every 2 years? That does not mean I agree with the laws they just passed. I just disagree with the article bringing up they are a lame duck legislature every few sentences. The writer literally said lame duck every chance he got.
 

Crimson1967

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Alabama’s legislature only meets for about six weeks in the spring, with occasional special sessions called by the governor. But that is after they are sworn in. I guess that is in January with the governor.


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twofbyc

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Alabama’s legislature only meets for about six weeks in the spring, with occasional special sessions called by the governor. But that is after they are sworn in. I guess that is in January with the governor.


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They should just outlaw lame duck sessions; it shouldn’t be legal anyway. Even in Congress.
The people have spoken; losers should have no more say in governance from that point on.


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uafanataum

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They should just outlaw lame duck sessions; it shouldn’t be legal anyway. Even in Congress.
The people have spoken; losers should have no more say in governance from that point on.


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When you are elected, it is for a 2 year term. It does not start until 2 months after election day. So it should not end until 2 months after election day.
 

CharminTide

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When you are elected, it is for a 2 year term. It does not start until 2 months after election day. So it should not end until 2 months after election day.
I get that. However, if a company tells someone they'll be fired in two months, don't be surprised if they start swiping all the nice pens and office supplies in the meantime.
 

twofbyc

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Alabama’s legislature only meets for about six weeks in the spring, with occasional special sessions called by the governor. But that is after they are sworn in. I guess that is in January with the governor.


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This. They still get paid, right?





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