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  1. #27
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MattinBama View Post
    Congrats to the republicans. They have enough useful idiots right this second to be the party of criminals, frauds, traitors, Russian assets, and all manner of other scum to have nearly installed their oligarchy/corporatocracy to make the Constitution null and void.
    As an independent, I'd say that the republicans are a lot closer than the democrats...
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  3. #28
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    soros opened a passbook savings account for me in 1974
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  4. #29
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    If Trump and his base are “patriots”, then, yeah, I’m probably not one either.
    Much easier to be “patriotic” when your country is physically attacked by another country than it is to answer the call to go fight a war for a political vendetta, or just to make the rich richer.


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  5. #30
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    If Trump and his base are “patriots”, then, yeah, I’m probably not one either.
    Much easier to be “patriotic” when your country is physically attacked by another country than it is to answer the call to go fight a war for a political vendetta, or just to make the rich richer.
    I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you to not tools sight of the bigger picture. TheUnited States is bigger than Donald Trump. Trump is a momentary blip. Trump does not define the United States. The United States are bigger than Trump.
    From the opening post:
    46% of young Americans believe U.S. is more “racist” than other nations. The obvious follow-up question to the young Americans should been, "How many other countries have you been to and which ones were less racist than the United States?" Having been to 54 countries, I can only say this observation is absolutely false.

    Only 1 in 6 Americans could identify the rights that are protected by the first amendment. That is part of the success and achievements that Americans ought to know instinctively.

    1 in 6 Americans don’t think patriotism is a good thing. I guess that depends on how you define "patriotism." Merriam-Webster defines it as "love for or devotion to one's country." That would depend on the nature of the country in question. If you are taught the failings of the country, but not its extraordinary successes and achievements, then it might not be unreasonable to conclude that being devoted to your country is a bad thing. On the other hand, if citizens know about the country's achievements, it is natural to be devoted to the country. The idea that all men are created equal. That governments are created by the people and when it fails to achieve the purposes for which it was created, the people have the right to change it. For people who have accepted those propositions, the United States have been a refuge for the oppressed and are still the number 1 destination for immigrants. The United States prevented the re-colonization of Latin America and was the second biggest naval contributor to the suppression of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The United States dumped Japanese imperialism, Nazism and Soviet Communism on the garbage heap of history, and, instead of punishing Japan and Germany, planted liberal democracy in those two countries. The birth place of jazz, blues, rock and roll, the world's greatest film industry and the idea of national parks.
    Last edited by Tidewater; December 16th, 2018 at 10:34 AM.

  6. #31
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you to not tools sight of the bigger picture. TheUnited States is bigger than Donald Trump. Trump is a momentary blip. Trump does not define the United States. The United States are bigger than Trump.
    From the opening post:
    46% of young Americans believe U.S. is more “racist” than other nations. The obvious follow-up question to the young Americans should been, "How many other countries have you been to and which ones were less racist than the United States?" Having been to 54 countries, I can only say this observation is absolutely false.

    Only 1 in 6 Americans could identify the rights that are protected by the first amendment. That is part of the success and achievements that Americans ought to know instinctively.

    1 in 6 Americans don’t think patriotism is a good thing. I guess that depends on how you define "patriotism." Merriam-Webster defines it as "love for or devotion to one's country." Thats would depend on the nature of the country in question. If you are taught the failings of the country, but not its extraordinary successes and achievements, then it might not be unreasonable to conclude that being devoted to your country. On the other hand, if citizens know about the country's achievements, it is natural to be devoted to the country. The idea that all men are created equal. That governments are created by the people and when it fails to achieve the purposes for which it was created, the people have the right to change it. For people who have accepted those propositions, the United States have been a refuge for the oppressed and are still the number 1 destination for immigrants. The United States prevented the re-colonization of Latin America and was the second biggest naval contributor to the suppression of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The United States dumped Japanese imperialism, Nazism and Soviet Communism on the garbage heap of history, and, instead of punishing Japan and Germany, planted liberal democracy in those two countries. The birth place of jazz, blues, rock and roll, the world's greatest film industry and the idea of national parks.
    Dude, you totally missed the point. Trump and Bush (the list is much longer) are two of the main reasons patriotism in the younger generations is dwindling.
    When your country goes to war (killing and maiming millions) for illegitimate reasons ( I can list them but you know what they are), young people have a hard time justifying support of that as “patriotism”.
    It goes much deeper than Trump or Bush; it goes to the question of do we fight for the rich America, and is that the same as fighting for our freedom? What your numbers reveal is how the young people answer that question.


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  7. #32
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Dude, you totally missed the point. Trump and Bush (the list is much longer) are two of the main reasons patriotism in the younger generations is dwindling.
    When your country goes to war (killing and maiming millions) for illegitimate reasons ( I can list them but you know what they are), young people have a hard time justifying support of that as “patriotism”.
    It goes much deeper than Trump or Bush; it goes to the question of do we fight for the rich America, and is that the same as fighting for our freedom? What your numbers reveal is how the young people answer that question.


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  8. #33
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    As an independent, I'd say that the republicans are a lot closer than the democrats...
    I vote Dem by default. If I had to boil it down to a snappy slogan type explanation, I would say the Dems are often disappointing while the GOP is consistently disgusting.

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  9. #34
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Dude, you totally missed the point. Trump and Bush (the list is much longer) are two of the main reasons patriotism in the younger generations is dwindling.
    When your country goes to war (killing and maiming millions) for illegitimate reasons ( I can list them but you know what they are), young people have a hard time justifying support of that as “patriotism”.
    It goes much deeper than Trump or Bush; it goes to the question of do we fight for the rich America, and is that the same as fighting for our freedom? What your numbers reveal is how the young people answer that question.
    I see what you are saying.
    Some of these data are specifically about young people. Others are about the population in general. I would bet that if the same folks had asked the same question of young people ("Is the United States a racist country?") in 2012, the year the US re-elected a black man to the presidency, I would bet a similar percentage of young people would have answered yes. This phenomenon has been a long time in coming.

    I think you may be reversing the causality. Young people fight because they love their country. Whether they love their country or not is a function of what they are taught about their country. If you are taught about slavery but not that the United States did, in fact, outlaw slavery or taught about Jim Crow, without having it emphasized that the United States did, in fact, do away with Jim Crow, and not taught about the amazing good things the United States have done, then you will have a generation that associated patriotism with racism or that disapproves of patriotism itself.
    MLK did not say, "Man, this place sucks. Let's all move to Canada or Liberia." He was a patriot. He said, "Let's make our country better."
    That distinction is worth emphasizing.

  10. #35
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I see what you are saying.
    Some of these data are specifically about young people. Others are about the population in general. I would bet that if the same folks had asked the same question of young people ("Is the United States a racist country?") in 2012, the year the US re-elected a black man to the presidency, I would bet a similar percentage of young people would have answered yes. This phenomenon has been a long time in coming.

    I think you may be reversing the causality. Young people fight because they love their country. Whether they love their country or not is a function of what they are taught about their country. If you are taught about slavery but not that the United States did, in fact, outlaw slavery or taught about Jim Crow, without having it emphasized that the United States did, in fact, do away with Jim Crow, and not taught about the amazing good things the United States have done, then you will have a generation that associated patriotism with racism or that disapproves of patriotism itself.
    MLK did not say, "Man, this place sucks. Let's all move to Canada or Liberia." He was a patriot. He said, "Let's make our country better."
    That distinction is worth emphasizing.
    Can’t multi quote on iPad so -
    First paragraph - of course they would still say yes. Obama’s elections didn’t change anything (see Congress) because half the country never votes. They go by what they see everyday, which leads me to
    Second paragraph - whether they love their country or not is based on whether or not what they are taught agrees with what they see everyday. And in my case you’re dead wrong - I was taught everything good about America and none of the bad; the imperialistic USA I had to discover on my own.
    We fundamentally agree on what America is “supposed” to be (I think); we fundamentally disagree on what it actually is and has been almost all of my life.


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  11. #36
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    About national parks, my daughter actually lives inside the oldest French national park - Vanoise, in Savoie. It was founded in 1963. Yellowstone is the oldest national park in the US. It was founded in 1872...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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  12. #37
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Dude, you totally missed the point. Trump and Bush (the list is much longer) are two of the main reasons patriotism in the younger generations is dwindling.
    When your country goes to war (killing and maiming millions) for illegitimate reasons ( I can list them but you know what they are), young people have a hard time justifying support of that as “patriotism”.
    It goes much deeper than Trump or Bush; it goes to the question of do we fight for the rich America, and is that the same as fighting for our freedom? What your numbers reveal is how the young people answer that question.
    Just for clarification, when has the United States killed and maimed millions?
    WW II there were like 70-85 million dead, but the majority of those were the Russo-German war of 1941-45 and the Sino-Japanese War of 1937-1945. How many saved lived does the U.S. get credit for by ending the Holocaust and the Japanese murderous rampage in China? Is WW II a good war or a bad war?
    Korea: 200,000 UN forces, 500,000 NKPA/ChiCom dead, 2.5 million civilians (North and South dead). How many of htose were murdered by the North Koreans during their occupation of the South, which the U.S. put an end to? Good war or bad war?
    Vietnam: Allied military deaths 282,000, NVA/VC military deaths 444,000, Civilian deaths (North and South Vietnam) 627,000, total 1.3 million, or which all of the Allied deaths and probably the civilian deaths were done by the NVA/VC. Good war or bad war?
    Gulf War I: 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war. Good war or bad war?
    Afghanistan: Over 111,000 Afghans, including civilians, soldiers and militants killed, almost all the Afghan soldiers and most of the civilians have been killed by the Taliban. 2,412 U.S. military dead. Good war or bad war?
    Gulf War II: 112,667–123,284 civilian deaths from violence (but this includes civilians killed by insurgents as well as the Coalition/Iraqi government) 2003-2013. Good war or bad war?

    Bottom line, I do not see millions of dead or maimed, except WW II and the U.S. was fighting to stop that slaughter. Generally, it is the U.S. opponents who do most of the killing and maiming of civilians.

  13. #38
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Can’t multi quote on iPad so -
    First paragraph - of course they would still say yes. Obama’s elections didn’t change anything (see Congress) because half the country never votes. They go by what they see everyday, which leads me to
    Second paragraph - whether they love their country or not is based on whether or not what they are taught agrees with what they see everyday. And in my case you’re dead wrong - I was taught everything good about America and none of the bad; the imperialistic USA I had to discover on my own.
    We fundamentally agree on what America is “supposed” to be (I think); we fundamentally disagree on what it actually is and has been almost all of my life.
    Thanks. How old are you?

  14. #39
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Thanks. How old are you?
    65


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