State of American Patriotism Report - Page 4
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  1. #40
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Just for clarification, when has the United States killed and maimed millions?
    WW II there were like 70-85 million dead, but the majority of those were the Russo-German war of 1941-45 and the Sino-Japanese War of 1937-1945. How many saved lived does the U.S. get credit for by ending the Holocaust and the Japanese murderous rampage in China? Is WW II a good war or a bad war?
    Korea: 200,000 UN forces, 500,000 NKPA/ChiCom dead, 2.5 million civilians (North and South dead). How many of htose were murdered by the North Koreans during their occupation of the South, which the U.S. put an end to? Good war or bad war?
    Vietnam: Allied military deaths 282,000, NVA/VC military deaths 444,000, Civilian deaths (North and South Vietnam) 627,000, total 1.3 million, or which all of the Allied deaths and probably the civilian deaths were done by the NVA/VC. Good war or bad war?
    Gulf War I: 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war. Good war or bad war?
    Afghanistan: Over 111,000 Afghans, including civilians, soldiers and militants killed, almost all the Afghan soldiers and most of the civilians have been killed by the Taliban. 2,412 U.S. military dead. Good war or bad war?
    Gulf War II: 112,667–123,284 civilian deaths from violence (but this includes civilians killed by insurgents as well as the Coalition/Iraqi government) 2003-2013. Good war or bad war?

    Bottom line, I do not see millions of dead or maimed, except WW II and the U.S. was fighting to stop that slaughter. Generally, it is the U.S. opponents who do most of the killing and maiming of civilians.
    It was killing “and” maiming. Our side, their sides and innocent non-combatants - I’ve never seen any accurate assessment of how many were “injured” (maimed) on the other sides. But I don’t think a “one dead three injured” calculation is off the mark.
    But, let’s just say hundreds and hundreds of thousands. I’ll leave it at that.


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  3. #41
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    State of American Patriotism Report

    Let me start with Korea.
    I’ll say neither because China got directly involved in combat.
    Vietnam - you really have to ask?
    Gulf war - again neither because it was a multinational effort.
    Afghanistan up until we reportedly let (Bush did) bin Laden escape, good. After that point, again - you have to ask?
    And stop prevaricating - it’s not “Gulf War2”, it’s the Iraq war and it is worse than Vietnam.
    No need to keep trying to convert me - I firmly believe America has been an imperialistic power most of my life and trust me, people I am close to, respect and trust have tried and failed. You’ve got no shot.
    The only war I’ll ever view as “good” is one where you fight for your own survival, not to impose your will or way of life on others who don’t threaten your survival. Or to make certain people richer.


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    Last edited by twofbyc; December 15th, 2018 at 02:49 PM.
    The supreme quality for leadership is unquestionably integrity. Without it, no real success is possible, no matter whether it is on a section gang, a football field, in an army, or in an office. Dwight D. Eisenhower

  4. #42
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Let me start with Korea.
    I’ll say neither because China got directly involved in combat.
    Vietnam - you really have to ask?
    Gulf war - again neither because it was a multinational effort.
    Afghanistan up until we reportedly let (Bush did) bin Laden escape, good. After that point, again - you have to ask?
    And stop prevaricating - it’s not “Gulf War2”, it’s the Iraq war and it is worse than Vietnam.
    No need to keep trying to convert me - I firmly believe America has been an imperialistic power most of my life and trust me, people I am close to, respect and trust have tried and failed. You’ve got no shot.
    The only war I’ll ever view as “good” is one where you fight for your own survival, not to impose your will or way of life on others who don’t threaten your survival. Or to make certain people richer.
    I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
    As for American imperialism, I do not know of any war America has waged that has been imperialist. Germany and Japan today are free, sovereign, and independent states. As is South Korea. Vietnam is as well, even though their level of internal "freedom" is debatable and they ended up taking a different route than the people in the south would have chosen. Iraq is also sovereign and generally independent, even if not internally "free." On the other hand, if the U.S. waged a war for oil, the U.S. has not secured an exclusive oil contracts that I know of. Afghanistan is a basket case that will never be free by the standards of western liberal democracy, and will not be completely sovereign of independent because the government is so corrupt. Again, if the U.S. is acting as an imperial power, the U.S. does not seem to be garnering an imperial share of the resources of that country.

    The only real imperial wars the United States have waged are internal ones to create internal colonies: the long-term wars waged against Native Americans ("The only good Indian is a dead Indian.") so white people could settle on their lands and (dare I say it?) the South.

    Apologists for the Union war effort had this to say about the war against the South:

    Parson Brownlow was a pro-Union Methodist from east Tennessee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unionist Parson Brownlow
    If I had the power, I would arm and uniform in the Federal habiliments every wolf and panther and catamount and tiger and bear in the mountains of America; every crocodile in the swamps of Florida and South Carolina; every negro in the Southern Confederacy, and every devil in hell, and turn them on the rebels in the South, if it exterminated every rebel from the face of God’s green earth – every man, woman and child south of Mason and Dixon’s line. ...We will crowd the rebels into the Gulf of Mexico, and drown the entire race, as the devil did the hogs in the Sea of Galilee. [‘applause’]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brownlow
    I would divide your army into three grand divisions. Let the first be armed and equipped as the law requires, will small arms and artillery. Let them be the largest division, and do the killing. Let the second division be armed with pine torches and spirits of turpentine, and let them to the burning! Let the third and last division be armed with surveyors’ compasses and chains, that will survey the land and settle it with loyal people.
    Reverend George B. Bacon was a Congregationalist minister.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Bacon
    I would call for two millions of volunteers. I would form them four deep, their right upon the slope of the Alleghenies, and their left upon the margin of the sea, with bayonets fixed I would order them to march and drive every man who would not shoulder his musket and join this advancing host into the Gulf of Mexico.
    That sounds like fairly standard nineteenth century imperialism: kill the inhabitants and take their land.

    United States imperialism vis-a-vis the Indians speaks for itself.

  5. #43
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    Re: State of American Patriotism Report

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    65
    I'm 55 and what school kids today are getting taught is not the same as what you and I got in school.
    I'm not saying it should only consist of the rah-rah "America makes no mistakes" story (America has made mistakes), but I would insist that school kids do need to learn first and foremost about the amazing successes and achievements (e.g. the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, destroying Nazism and Communism, man on the moon), even if they eventually learn about the failures and mistakes (e.g. slavery and Jim Crow) so they can put them into context.

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