Different Realities: Discrepancies in Sooner & Tide Fans Viewpoints

RammerJammer14 · Dec 13, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
The point is that saying OU is the worse defense in history is probably a little misleading. The fact is many teams are statistically worse than OU's season including some of Bama's schedule.

I hold Tua in the highest regard -- no slight intended at him at all. My point is that freshman QBs may not show their true capabilities until they've had some P5 game experience. Rather, I was trying to support the notion that it MIGHT be misleading to judge Texas Tech's offensive proficiency based on the first game of the season in which Texas Tech started a new freshman QB.

I, nor anyone else, has said that OU is fielding the worst defense in the history of football. I’m simply saying your defense is pretty bad, especially for a championship caliber team. Having a better defense than Ole Miss or the Citadel is hardly a shining accomplishment. Maybe it will surprise us at the end of the month, but I doubt it.

Trjtrjtrj · Dec 13, 2018

selmaborntidefan said:
Baker Mayfield, who was supposedly born in a manger on Christmas Day because there was no room in the inn, led the greatest offense since Norman Schwarzkopf invaded Baghad to.......ONE touchdown in the second half.
And let's see what the offense did in the second half:
Eight possessions
152 yards, 36 coming on one play
5 three and outs, one ending in a pick; another was four plays and the end of the drive
7 points

As I said, we got too conservative during the 3 Qtr and tried to eat clock to give our thin DL a rest. That backfired big time. I don't think Riley will ever do that again. We're at our best when we're playing wide-open and any play in the game-book is a real possibility on any down. In the 4th quarter, OU's offense had 123 yards. (Bama only had 371 yards for their entire game in their victory against UGA last year.) And of course, you count the first half -- after all UGA had a month to prepare. Our offense showed up.

Are you counting on Bama holding us to 7 points a half?

TideFan in AU · Dec 13, 2018

edwd58 said:
As we've all learned: there are lies, damn lies, and statistics - which are for losers.
The neat thing about stats is that you can pick your side of an issue and then find, create, or tweak statistics to support your argument. Stats still don't win games or OU would be undefeated.

Murray has good stats, I've not seen anyone here argue against that. Tua has good stats, the Alabama defense has good stats, the Oklahoma defense has bad... issues.

Earlier in the thread a sooner touted the OU defense as being better, statistically, than 5 defenses we've played. I find this claim amazing/puzzling - considering we've played 13 games - as simple math, that even Alabama grads can do (but someone might want to check me) - means we've played 8 defenses better than Oklahoma's. I doubt it takes much research to find the answer to this question but I'll ask it (rhetorically) anyway: how many defenses has OU played that are better than Alabama's? The answer certainly won't be 8, or even 5.

OU's opponents and scoring defense ranking:

FAU - 94
UCLA - 106
Iowa St - 36
Army - 13
Baylor - 87
Texas - 57
TCU - 44
Kansas St. - 52
Texas Tech - 86
Okla St - 97
Kansas - 83
West Virginia - 60

Bama is #4 in the country allowing 14.8 PPG

Ole Man Dan · Dec 13, 2018

KrAzY3 said:
Really the OPs post is just a rebuttable to Tidefan perspectives. It's not addressing and dealing with discrepancies, it's a list of things he disagrees with....

I don't know if the Big 12 has been drinking 'The Kool Aid', or trying to convince the world that the 12 and the SEC are equal. I will admit that the 12 are probably equal to some of
the bottom dwellers of the SEC.

I guess this is why we play the game...
I remember the defeat of ND after they tried to serve us the same type facts...
Wasn't pretty.

TideFan in AU · Dec 13, 2018

For the sake of comparison,

Bama's opponents and scoring defense ranking:

Lou - 127
ASU - 59
OM - 114
TAMU - 58
UL - 105
ARK - 109
MIZZ - 44
TENN - 75
LSU - 22
MSU - 1
Citadel - 130
AU - 18
UGA - 16

Since Citadel is not ranked in FBS, I automatically moved them to 130th (which would be last in FBS).

If you add up both teams opponents rankings and divide them by 13 games (I counted Texas twice for OU) OU's average ranking would be 67th, and Bama's would be 68th.

Bama's overall ranking is not impressive this year, which a big reason Bama's starters didn't play in the 4th quarter of the majority of their games this year. Several games, the starters were out after a few series in the 3rd quarter.

With all that in mind, OU was #1 in scoring offense at 49.5 PPG and Bama is #2 at 47.9 PPG against a similar overall opponent's ranking. It is worth noting that Bama played 4 top 25 ranked scoring defenses while OU played one. Bama averaged 35 PPG against LSU, MSU, AU, and UGA and OU scored 28 points in OT against their only top 25 ranked scoring defense.

TideFan in AU · Dec 13, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
As I said, we got too conservative during the 3 Qtr and tried to eat clock to give our thin DL a rest. That backfired big time. I don't think Riley will ever do that again. We're at our best when we're playing wide-open and any play in the game-book is a real possibility on any down. In the 4th quarter, OU's offense had 123 yards. (Bama only had 371 yards for their entire game in their victory against UGA last year.) And of course, you count the first half -- after all UGA had a month to prepare. Our offense showed up.

Are you counting on Bama holding us to 7 points a half?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't expect to hold OU to 7 points in either half. That said, Army (the only truly good defense OU played all year) held Murray to 165 yards passing and scoreless in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

The bottom line is Bama will be playing the best offense they've played all year, and OU will be playing the best offense AND defense they have played all year. I feel like it will be a higher scoring game than any of us Bama fans will be comfortable with.

Loam · Dec 13, 2018

As i said in another thread, OU will score in the mid/high 30s on us but we'll score in the 50s or 60s. We'll stop OU and force them to punt probably 5 or 6 times or so, give or take. The kicker is that OU will force us to punt probably one or two times and that will be due to our OC getting cute.

Jacobs will be the MVP in this game and I'm sure Sooner fans know who he is since OU refused to recruit him. He and his family were life long Sooner fans and he played HS ball in Oklahoma. He's going to be Uber motivated to stick it to you.

Go Bama · Dec 14, 2018

Just asking for unbiased opinions:

Which team has the better offensive line?

Which team has has better wide receivers?

Which team is better at the tight end position?

Which team is better at the running back position?

Which team is better at the quarterback position?

crimsonaudio · Dec 14, 2018

At this point, I'm done discussing the game with OU fans - every one of them will "yeah but" the fact that have essentially no defense as if the offense is something mankind has never seen before. I've never seen a fan base so willingly drunk on the koolaid of their offense (specifically their QB).

Yes, they have a chance, but there's a reason that after 13 games they're 14 point underdogs. But they even have an excuse for that. So whatever.

I'm just going to drop out as the lack of rational discussion is maddening.

KrAzY3 · Dec 14, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
At this point, I'm done discussing the game with OU fans

I was done when they started showing up to explain why they deserved back to back Heisman trophies. You'd think they were the ones that have won 5 national championships since 2009.

When you steal something, you should at least have the common decency to not go to the place you stole from and rub it in their face. Sneak away quietly like every other thief...

And, that's my honest take on the subject. They are enamored with themselves and there's enough media support to drink the Kool-Aid. They found a way to be more annoying than LSU fans with their free Devin White conspiracy nonsense.

81usaf92 · Dec 14, 2018

TideFan in AU said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't expect to hold OU to 7 points in either half. That said, Army (the only truly good defense OU played all year) held Murray to 165 yards passing and scoreless in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

The bottom line is Bama will be playing the best offense they've played all year, and OU will be playing the best offense AND defense they have played all year. I feel like it will be a higher scoring game than any of us Bama fans will be comfortable with.

Army only did that by holding the ball for 45 minutes.

81usaf92 · Dec 14, 2018

KrAzY3 said:
I was done when they started showing up to explain why they deserved back to back Heisman trophies. You'd think they were the ones that have won 5 national championships since 2009.

When you steal something, you should at least have the common decency to not go to the place you stole from and rub it in their face. Sneak away quietly like every other thief...

And, that's my honest take on the subject. They are enamored with themselves and there's enough media support to drink the Kool-Aid. They found a way to be more annoying than LSU fans with their free Devin White conspiracy nonsense.

Until they start putting up billboards in Birmingham then there is no comparison between fan bases.

selmaborntidefan · Dec 14, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
As I said, we got too conservative during the 3 Qtr and tried to eat clock to give our thin DL a rest. That backfired big time. I don't think Riley will ever do that again. We're at our best when we're playing wide-open and any play in the game-book is a real possibility on any down. In the 4th quarter, OU's offense had 123 yards.
(Bama only had 371 yards for their entire game in their victory against UGA last year.)

Yes, let's ignore the context shall we......let's PRETEND that the exact same Tide team played both halves on offense....

Trjtrjtrj said:
And of course, you count the first half -- after all UGA had a month to prepare. Our offense showed up.

Gee, you must continually have me confused with someone who said something I didn't say. (This is reaching the point of absurdity).

Trjtrjtrj said:
Are you counting on Bama holding us to 7 points a half?

If we hold your offense to 38 for the game (as UGA did), it won't matter.

NationalTitles18 · Dec 14, 2018

Yup, different realities. One is real while the others resides in the head of some Sooners fans.

cmmiller711 · Dec 14, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
2) The Discussed Storyline: OU’s defense is historically bad and will be the worse defense Bama sees all year.

A Sooner’s viewpoint: I’m confident OU’s defense has performed better than several of Bama’s opponents this season, but objectively comparing OU and Bama’s 2018 opponents is difficult because Bama and OU have played against different teams. However we can turn to the FootballOutsiders S&P+ ratings BECAUSE it attempts to normalize for competition. They rate OU’s defense as stronger than 5 of Bama’s 2018 opponents: Louisville, Ole Miss, LA Lafayette, Tennessee, and The Citadel.

alabama's point total's in those 5 games: 51, 62, 56, 58, 50.

tua's passer rating in those 5 games: 235.4, 224.3, 316.9, 199.7, 256.6

Bama's bigger point total for one half in those games: 28(44 in 3Q), 49, 49, 42, 40

OU's defense is the worst defense to ever play for a national title. period. bama will SHRED OU. its just a matter of if OU will shred bama's defense enough to keep up.

NationalTitles18 · Dec 14, 2018

cmmiller711 said:
alabama's point total's in those 5 games: 51, 62, 56, 58, 50.

tua's passer rating in those 5 games: 235.4, 224.3, 316.9, 199.7, 256.6

Bama's bigger point total for one half in those games: 28(44 in 3Q), 49, 49, 42, 40

OU's defense is the worst defense to ever play for a national title. period. bama will SHRED OU. its just a matter of if OU will shred bama's defense enough to keep up.

Alabama will be lucky to score on the most improved defense ever.

dWarriors88 · Dec 14, 2018

TideFan in AU said:
OU's opponents and scoring defense ranking:

FAU - 94
UCLA - 106
Iowa St - 36
Army - 13
Baylor - 87
Texas - 57
TCU - 44
Kansas St. - 52
Texas Tech - 86
Okla St - 97
Kansas - 83
West Virginia - 60

Bama is #4 in the country allowing 14.8 PPG

DATE	OPPONENT	RESULT	W-L (CONF)	HI PASS	HI RUSH	HI REC
Sat, Sep 1	vs Florida Atlantic	W63-14	1-0 (0-0)	Murray 209	Anderson 100	Brown 133
Sat, Sep 8	vs UCLA	W49-21	2-0 (0-0)	Murray 306	Murray 69	Lamb 146
Sat, Sep 15	@ Iowa State	W37-27	3-0 (1-0)	Murray 348	Murray 77	Brown 191
Sat, Sep 22	vs Army	W28-21 OT	4-0 (1-0)	Murray 165	Sermon 119	Calcaterra 47
Sat, Sep 29	vs Baylor	W66-33	5-0 (2-0)	Murray 432	Brooks 107	Brown 132
Sat, Oct 6	vs 19 Texas *	L48-45	5-1 (2-1)	Murray 304	Murray 92	Brown 131
Sat, Oct 20	@ TCU	W52-27	6-1 (3-1)	Murray 213	Brooks 168	Lamb 91
Sat, Oct 27	vs Kansas State	W51-14	7-1 (4-1)	Murray 352	Brooks 94	Lamb 160
Sat, Nov 3	@ Texas Tech	W51-46	8-1 (5-1)	Murray 360	Sermon 206	Morris 101
Sat, Nov 10	vs Oklahoma State	W48-47	9-1 (6-1)	Murray 349	Brooks 165	Brown 142
Sat, Nov 17	vs Kansas	W55-40	10-1 (7-1)	Murray 272	Brooks 171	Brown 65
Fri, Nov 23	@ 13 West Virginia	W59-56	11-1 (8-1)	Murray 364	Brooks 182	Brown 243
Sat, Dec 1	vs 14 Texas *	W39-27	12-1 (8-1)	Murray 379	Sermon 65	Lamb 167

OU's game against Army is a good reference point for what the Orange Bowl will look like. Except we won't need OT.

OU only scored 28 in an OT win against a decent defense. We'll run a Ball Control offense, and our Defense scores points instead of giving them up, seeing the endzone 5 times this season. OU has 2 defensive TDs to their credit. However Alabama's Defense has a T/O margin of +8, OU has a T/O margin of -2. INTs? Bama:14; OU:6. Bama ran back 4 of those INTs for TDs. If the team shows up focused and plays tight, I don't think they are going to have any issues.

cmmiller711 · Dec 14, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
4) The Discussed Storyline: This year the SEC has tamed those high-flying Big XII offenses.

A Sooner’s Viewpoint: We have three SEC/BigXII matchups from this season. They are: WVU 40 / Tenn 14, KSU 10 / Miss St 31, Texas Tech 27 / Ole Miss 47. [It’s worth noting that 5 of the 6 teams had a returning QB with various levels of game experience from previous seasons, but Texas Tech had a freshman playing in his first college game in a QB-centric offense. In my experience, a freshman QB often improves dramatically over and above their first game against a P5 opponent – and indeed, Texas Tech’s offense improved over the course of the year. (BTW, Tua recorded a 25% completion rate in his first game against a P5 opponent.)]

Looking a little deeper, Tennessee didn’t stop WVU (WVU punted one time), Miss State did a good job against KSU holding them to 10, and Ole Miss did a reasonable job against a freshman QB starting his first college game. From SEC league play, we learn that Tennessee had a fair defense, Miss State had a very good defense, and Ole Miss had a fair defense. WVU ended 6-3 in conference, KSU ended 3-6 in conference, and Texas Tech ended 3-6 in conference. Meanwhile, Miss State ended 4-4 in conference, Ole Miss ended 1-7 in conference, and Tennessee ended 2-6 in conference. Only three games makes any assessment a challenge, but I’d say the results are consistent with what was expected based off Big XII and SEC league play.

absolutely paper thin argument.

MSU has the number 1 scoring D in the Country and K states offense is terrible. so lets throw that out out of fairness?

Tennessee is second to last in the SEC in scoring D. They dont have a fair defense. They have a bad defense. but not quite as bad as OU. WVU is a very good offense and they only scored 40. which is 2.3 points below their average. Do you think OU will do 20 points better than that against bama? thats what theyll have to do bc bama is gonna put up 60 if you go by the numbers.

Ole miss is last in the SEC in scoring D. They actually have arguably the worst defense in SEC history this year. they arent fair. theyre bad. worse than OU even. Although OU did give up more touchdowns than they did this year.

Whats more, is that the arguably the worst D ever to take the field in an SEC uniform only gave up 27 points to the #16 offense in the country, 10 points below their average. Somehow, you're taking that stat and trying to use it to say that SEC defenses arent that much better than Big 12 defenses. LOL ok man.

if youre gonna do this point/counterpoint thing, at least make a point that stands up.

B1GTide · Dec 14, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
B1GTide, I believe your calculations are wrong. Let's look at the last 6 games of the 13 played:

* FROMM = 124 attempts, 87 completions, 1128 yards, 14 TDs, 1 int = 182.2

* MURRAY = 181 attempts, 126 completions, 2076 yards, 15 TDs, 4 int = 188.9

Using the final 6 games helps Fromm because it places more emphasis on the Nov-17 game where Fromm threw a 344.1 QB rating (it was against that powerhouse Univ of Massachusetts).

I got those numbers from CBS, but I agree that they are wrong because this post prompted me to do the calculation myself.

For those who want to know the formula, it is [(8.4*yards)+(330*TDs)+(100*Comp)-(200*Ints)]/Attempts

I double checked your stats for those games and they were correct. I ran the formula against those numbers and here is what the math produced:

Fromm - 190.3
Murray - 188.9

Funny that I got the same calculation for Murray, but not for Fromm. Not sure what you did wrong, but I did the calculation 3 times and got 190.3 each time. Feel free to run the numbers again.

Finally, the UMass game - Fromm barely played. He threw only 5 passes, had only 106 yards in that game, and only 1 TD. Yeah, it moved his score up about 7 points. But he also had games against Kentucky, Auburn and Alabama in there. Those games, against very good defenses, really hurt his score.

So, once again, Fromm was the best QB in the second half of the season. It negates many of your posts in this thread. I know that it hurts, but it is a straight fact.

trenda · Dec 14, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
You're kidding yourself if you think OU had zero offense in the 4th quarter and overtime. I think most Sooners believe we should have won that game!

Q4 Offense for OU against GA:
1 play - INT
3 plays - PUNT (8 yds)
6 plays - FG (88 yds)
3 plays - PUNT (7 yds)
4 plays - PUNT (20 yds)

OT offense for OU against GA:
4 plays - FG (9 yds)
6 plays - MISSED FG (15 yds)

In the second half, OU ran the ball 17 times, passed it 16 times. They were tackled for a loss twice and sacked 3 times. Intercepted once. In OT, 4 runs, 4 passes.

So, out of five possessions in the fourth quarter, OU had 3 punts, an INT and a FG. The 88 yd drive for the FG keeps it from being ZERO offense; but, otherwise . . .

As far as being too conservative, the run/pass ratio is about as balanced as it gets. Now, maybe balanced IS conservative for the Sooners; but the play calling was balanced in OT as well. As an unbiased observer, that was a great game that GA just finished a bit stronger. No shame in that, IMO.

Maybe it just looks a little different through OU glasses, I get that. But, from an unbiased view, it looks quite different.

I know this has ZERO effect on our upcoming game. I expect this to be a humdinger of a matchup.

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