Different Realities: Discrepancies in Sooner & Tide Fans Viewpoints
- Thread starter Trjtrjtrj
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Alabama's defense S&P+ ranking is 8. The highest ranked opponent for OU is TCU at 23.
To further show highlight the point OU fans seem to misunderstand about their defense:
Clemson defense S&P+ ranking: 1
Notre Dame defense S&P+ ranking: 4
Alabama defense S&P+ ranking: 8
Oklahoma defense S&P+ ranking: 89
No one (logical that is) is saying the Sooner defense is the worst defense in the history of the sport or in the nation for this season. The point here is how bad the defense is for a national title contending team.
Mayfield threw a pick on the first play of the fourth quarter. It was returned 39 yards, so should I call that one -39?
I don't think they do that, but it WAS the offense that gave up those 39 yards right there.
In the fourth qtr and overtime you ran 26 plays for 147 yards and scored 10 points.
If I subtract the 39 yards your offense cost you, OU ran 27 plays for 108 yards and had a net gain on offense of +3, since the turnover led directly to a UGA TD.
So yeah, I'd say holding an offense that had 385 yards in three quarters to a net of 107 in a quarter plus two overtimes - and few points - would be considered good.
Here are the defense S&P+ rankings for each playoff team since it started (order is based on seeding and CFP final teams in bold):
2014
Alabama #5 (16.1)
Oregon #39 (24.5)
Florida State #38 (24.4)
Ohio State #14 (19.5)
2015
Clemson #6 (16.0)
Alabama #1 (9.0)
Michigan State #13 (19.3)
Oklahoma #22 (21.3)
2016
Alabama #1 (5.9)
Clemson #6 (13.8)
Ohio State #5 (13.6)
Washington #8 (17.9)
2017
Clemson #2 (13.9)
Oklahoma #101 (32.2)
Georgia #11 (19.2)
Alabama #1 (13.8)
2018
Alabama #8 (16.1)
Clemson #1 (12.8)
Notre Dame #4 (14.4)
Oklahoma #89 (31.1)
Really, the ranking from last year appears to blow the "they're a young, talented group" narrative out of the water. They were just as bad last year.
2014
Alabama #5 (16.1)
Oregon #39 (24.5)
Florida State #38 (24.4)
Ohio State #14 (19.5)
2015
Clemson #6 (16.0)
Alabama #1 (9.0)
Michigan State #13 (19.3)
Oklahoma #22 (21.3)
2016
Alabama #1 (5.9)
Clemson #6 (13.8)
Ohio State #5 (13.6)
Washington #8 (17.9)
2017
Clemson #2 (13.9)
Oklahoma #101 (32.2)
Georgia #11 (19.2)
Alabama #1 (13.8)
2018
Alabama #8 (16.1)
Clemson #1 (12.8)
Notre Dame #4 (14.4)
Oklahoma #89 (31.1)
Really, the ranking from last year appears to blow the "they're a young, talented group" narrative out of the water. They were just as bad last year.
Hmmm. I simply plugged in the correct numbers into this site and hit the "NCAA" button:
http://www.primecomputing.com/
I still get that Murray edged out Fromm using the above site, so I plugged them into another site:
https://captaincalculator.com/sports/football/ncaa-passer-rating-calculator/
The second site also gets the lower answer for Fromm.
I won’t get into the other stuff that you mentioned, as it has been discussed by others, but this paragraph is a common misguided stat from BIG12 fans. Truth is that both schools stepped up their game when they entered the SEC. TO WIT : TEXAS A&M smacked BIG 12 co champion OKLAHOMA 41-13 after the 2012 season and MIZZOU handled BIG12 ‘tied for second ‘ team Okie lite 41-31 after the 2013 season . MIZZOU’s division titles were more about SEC east failings than MIZZOUs rise to power as all the major players in the east hit major down cycles. The west was still solid though.
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General question for the group: How many of us from this site go to other fan message boards to explain to them why we are going to beat them and why they are wrong about everything they think they know about college football?
The only one thing I will say in OU's somewhat defense is that maybe, just maybe, the reason their defense and the defenses of the rest of the Big 12 look so poor statistically is that they are always facing off against offenses that are up tempo, high flying attacks, or maybe just better in general. I have not looked up anything to back that up, but it might be true. Playing better offenses will make your defense look statistically bad.
The only one thing I will say in OU's somewhat defense is that maybe, just maybe, the reason their defense and the defenses of the rest of the Big 12 look so poor statistically is that they are always facing off against offenses that are up tempo, high flying attacks, or maybe just better in general. I have not looked up anything to back that up, but it might be true. Playing better offenses will make your defense look statistically bad.
Re: Different Realities: Discrepancies in Sooner & Tide Fans Viewpoints
I do think that this game will be more difficult than the Bama fans are giving it credit for. I do think that there is an opinion regarding the b12 and OU due to the scores and particularly the defense that OU has had/played against this year.
My thoughts are that with nothing "expected" out of OU, they do have a chance to build a defensive scheme from scratch this month in preparing for the game. I don't think you change anything on the offense. That offense gives OU a punchers chance in any game vs any team they play.
If say the single biggest distance this year between Alabama now vs every Bama team before is our offense. I'm not gonna talk up the QBs cause you can't open a stick of bubble gum without hearing about them. I'm gonna talk about the WRs. Usually Bama has A wide receiver (Cooper, Ridley), a solid tight end, and a running back not bad at catching passes. THE wide receiver, compared to the other receivers, usually has a minimum of twice as many catches, sometimes three or more times the number as the next receiver. This year though......
This year, Alabama’s top five receivers all have had 30 or more catches — Jerry Jeudy (59), Henry Ruggs III (42), Jaylen Waddle (41), Irv Smith, Jr. (38), and DeVonta Smith (30). Smith is a tight end.
They don't mention a running back, Josh Jacobs, maybe my favorite guy on the team, who can catch whatever's thrown to him and usually gets surprising yardage after the fact.
I think this, on paper, gives Bama the edge even if this becomes a shootout situation.
You made some solid points re: assumptions by Bama fans. I don't believe the OU defense that played all season long will be the one that shows up at the game. They'll have new wrinkles, delayed blitzes, etc. Different eye candy to try and catch guys off balance.
Hello, one of the "eeyores" on this site, though I like to consider myself a slightly pessimistic realistic.
I do think that this game will be more difficult than the Bama fans are giving it credit for. I do think that there is an opinion regarding the b12 and OU due to the scores and particularly the defense that OU has had/played against this year.
My thoughts are that with nothing "expected" out of OU, they do have a chance to build a defensive scheme from scratch this month in preparing for the game. I don't think you change anything on the offense. That offense gives OU a punchers chance in any game vs any team they play.
If say the single biggest distance this year between Alabama now vs every Bama team before is our offense. I'm not gonna talk up the QBs cause you can't open a stick of bubble gum without hearing about them. I'm gonna talk about the WRs. Usually Bama has A wide receiver (Cooper, Ridley), a solid tight end, and a running back not bad at catching passes. THE wide receiver, compared to the other receivers, usually has a minimum of twice as many catches, sometimes three or more times the number as the next receiver. This year though......
This year, Alabama’s top five receivers all have had 30 or more catches — Jerry Jeudy (59), Henry Ruggs III (42), Jaylen Waddle (41), Irv Smith, Jr. (38), and DeVonta Smith (30). Smith is a tight end.
They don't mention a running back, Josh Jacobs, maybe my favorite guy on the team, who can catch whatever's thrown to him and usually gets surprising yardage after the fact.
I think this, on paper, gives Bama the edge even if this becomes a shootout situation.
You made some solid points re: assumptions by Bama fans. I don't believe the OU defense that played all season long will be the one that shows up at the game. They'll have new wrinkles, delayed blitzes, etc. Different eye candy to try and catch guys off balance.
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That's why analytics like S&P+ are so good. They consider opponents, schedule, etc.
To your 1st paragraph: I have accounts on different sites so I do occasionally post on other sites. But this is by far my primary site. I would say about 80% of this board does not have an account on other sites, and about half of that 80% don’t even lurk on those sites.
It’s mostly due to the nature of most sites that many find uncomfortable. They can’t take the amount of smack that many boards encourage or allow. And some just get their feelings hurt after they create a novel of a post that is just smacked around by sarcasm and obnoxious banter. That along with the “We are going to blow you away because you kissed your cousins you dumb idiot gump” kinda remarks that are allowed on many sites.
Point is most here don’t like other sites due to the very loose rules on them and the lack of moderation. To say the least, most don’t want wrestling banter attached to observations.
Paragraph 2: I believe there can be some truth the fact that there are high powered offenses skewing the numbers, but I still find it hard to give this full credit when Kansas scored 40 on Oklahoma and Army took them to overtime.
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As for the bolded part, I gave that up many years ago. They don't want to hear anything logical and react hostilely. What I've gained from the OU boards are stances ranging from they will just blow us away with their offense, strength of defense be damned, to hoping that they can get 3 or 4 stops and pull off a close one. They're impregnable and I don't like wasting my time.
As for the second, it's a bit of both, I think. If your viewing audience doesn't value defense, but only high scoring, then high scoring is what you're going to see. People say the fans don't make any impact. I think that's wrong. In one sense of the word, football tends to be a TV product. The only time you can really see the relative strengths is in games like our upcoming game...
The move to high scoring games and expanded play-offs are the result of today's short attention span customer. I'm not talking about true, Informed, know what they are talking about fans. Everyone should get a participation trophy and UCF is undefeated so let's declare ourselves national champions. Today - people who don't know anything about football hate good defensive teams because the game is boring. The pundits are playing right into it because it generates revenue. I don't watch the NBA EVER because it's just evolved into crap. I loved the old days when the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons/Bulls really played the game. I love Defense in Football. To me, watching teams score 60 points on each other is not appealing. Outscoring your opponent is not good football (IMO).
I agree with this. I can’t waste my time for the next two weeks weeks reading the same arguments over and over.
Which team has the better offensive line? Push
Which team has has better wide receivers? Alabama
Which team is better at the tight end position? Alabama
Which team is better at the running back position? Alabama
Which team is better at the quarterback position? Push
I think media (especially television) definitely plays a part in the gradual shift towards higher scoring games, but I'd put the primary reason on rules changes centered around safety. The changes in kickoffs, helmet contact, protecting a defenseless qb or wr and so on are generally crouched in terms of safety. The exception may be the gradual shift in what gets called pass interference.
Personally, I enjoy the strategy involved. Blitzing and countering blitzes, offensive formations and countering alignments, play calling and so on are fascinating when done at a high level. All these strategies can be seen in either low-scoring or high-scoring games, so I guess it doesn't matter to me how many points go on the board as long as we're not just watching the same play over and over and over.
Isn’t the point of football is to outscore your opponent
***blue***The problem is that a great defensive performance is holding a team under 30. I mean the Greatest defense Alabama has had ever gave up 75 points to one of the greatest qbs ever in two games. Qbs and offensive minds have evolved to such a degree that they have made the ground and pound and have a great defense on the otherside a flawed strategy. It’s why CNS bringing Kiffin, Daboll, and Locks to Alabama has kept us at the top of the mountain. Had we stayed with the Mac and Nuss concept then you could most likely take two national championships away from our collection.
Steve Spurrier laid out the blue print of how to beat teams like Alabama. His admirers have just expanded on it and have made it normal to see high powered offenses that overwhelm big physical teams with great defenses. CNS adapted and put the pressure back on these offensive gurus. But the norm is now “ defenses don’t win championships but they sure can help”.
I've always considered myself pretty much a realist when it comes to watching football. I can usually see points of view from both and maybe its just me but I think there has been a shift in OU fans since we played the home and home in the early 2000's. I get it, they score a lot of points, win a lot of Heisman's and even beat us in the sugar bowl so I guess we might as well not even show.
On a less tongue and cheek note, I think Alabama has to fix the issue with the LB's sealing the edges, picking up crossing routes and ID'ing RB's out of the backfield. To me its been an issue all year and Oklahoma has the offensive minded people to exploit it. Mack and Moses have the speed to spy but I have't seen the consistency there
I also really hope the "mental fatigue" thing has been worked out (for those that will say its the playoffs and that alone will pump up the team I could have said the same thing about Auburn and SECCG)
I think Oklahoma can win this game, its one game with ample time to prepare and stranger things have happened. However, I do believe, if OU wins they will get killed by Clemson. Its not the individual teams that make the SEC strong, its the beating you take from week to week. Clemson is every bit as physical as Bama and running that gauntlet would be way too much for OU (being so one-sided) In my opinion
On a less tongue and cheek note, I think Alabama has to fix the issue with the LB's sealing the edges, picking up crossing routes and ID'ing RB's out of the backfield. To me its been an issue all year and Oklahoma has the offensive minded people to exploit it. Mack and Moses have the speed to spy but I have't seen the consistency there
I also really hope the "mental fatigue" thing has been worked out (for those that will say its the playoffs and that alone will pump up the team I could have said the same thing about Auburn and SECCG)
I think Oklahoma can win this game, its one game with ample time to prepare and stranger things have happened. However, I do believe, if OU wins they will get killed by Clemson. Its not the individual teams that make the SEC strong, its the beating you take from week to week. Clemson is every bit as physical as Bama and running that gauntlet would be way too much for OU (being so one-sided) In my opinion
So could one then say that, based on this statement and RTR's stats above showing clearly what teams who go on to win it all look like in terms of defense(#'s 14, 1, 6, and 1, respectively), that these fans care more about scoring than winning championships? Because it sure appears that way to me.
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