A Treatise on the Problem of Defense in the Big 12

AlexanderFan · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
If I'm not mistaken Mizzou won the SEC east in its first couple of years in the conference. However, not my reason for posting in this thread. .I've made this point before but a contributing factor in the current identity of Big 12 football is Texas...Texas H.S. football to be precise. The state is the epicenter of Big 12 recruiting. A recent article in the Houston Chronicle tells the story keying off the high scores in this year's ongoing playoffs which culminate starting tomorrow at ATT stadium. Ut started in the Valley with the Detmers and in Port Arthur. It spread to South Lake Carroll, Austin Westlake, and Lake Travis, and finally blossomed at Stephensville. The spread O now totally dominates Texas H.S. football and college coaching trees that run the spread all started careers in Texas H.S. football...see Hal Mumme. Finally, the sanctioning of a spring/early summer 7/7 league just added fuel to the fire. Texas now produces QBs, WRs, and RBs like a slot machine. The last 2 H.T. winners from Texas, Patrick Mahomes...from Texas. No conference depends on Texas for recruits like the Big 12. Yes, there are good D recruits in the state but the depth of talent isn't there compared to on the O side of the ball.

They can't all be stud receivers and backs in college, some of these guys can play defense. The Big Twelve makes a conscious effort to play no defense when they take the best corner on the team and put him in the slot on offense.

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rolltide_21 · Dec 19, 2018

uafan4life said:
Anyone complaining of verbosity was properly forewarned.
:biggrin2:

And you're welcome.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

If I’m not mistaken I’ve had your father as a history professor, so you come by verbosity honest

.

If I’ve got you mixed up with someone else I do apologize.

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Con · Dec 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
Lol. My God. Has any one team gotten that much mileage out of one meaningless football game? Saban used that game for one reason: getting ready for next season. It was no accident that it was Henry’s coming out party.

We also changed the body types of our defenders to deal with these types of offenses.

day-day · Dec 19, 2018

GulfCoastSooner said:
Interesting, if a little verbose, opinion. My own opinion is that hopefully for my team, every game matters. I wouldn’t want them trumpeting an attitude that one game is more important than the next, just so they would have a built-in excuse if they lose. And at the end of the day (to quote Bama fans favorite opposing coach) the scoreboard doesn’t have spaces for defensive stops.

Somebody help me out. Who is Bama fans' favorite opposing coach?

PacadermaTideUs · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
I'd make a different analogy...OU plays GSW/HOU.ROCKET offense and that fact alone should give Tide fans pause. You underestimate this edition of OKLAHOMA FOOTBALL at your own peril. You'd think you would have learned your lesson in the Sugar Bowl.

Gonna mark this post and circle back to it Dec 30th... LOL

PacadermaTideUs · Dec 19, 2018

day-day said:
Somebody help me out. Who is Bama fans' favorite opposing coach?

I know, right? I don’t think he’s talking about Phil. ???

deliveryman35 · Dec 19, 2018

OU has quick-strike capability on O and I think our coaches and players recognize and respect that, which is really all that matters.

crimsonaudio · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
I'd make a different analogy...OU plays GSW/HOU.ROCKET offense and that fact alone should give Tide fans pause. You underestimate this edition of OKLAHOMA FOOTBALL at your own peril. You'd think you would have learned your lesson in the Sugar Bowl.

:rolleye2:

Not sure if Tidefans has changed or you have - when you joined, OU knew something about defense. Now your defense flat-out sucks. Maybe you should spend some time looking in the mirror instead of bringing up a game in which none of the current players were even in...

The Ols · Dec 19, 2018

I saw a My Cousin Vinny quote earlier...I'm going to keep that rolling..."I'm finished with this guy." LOL!!! RTR!!!Owen you've been pretty good throughout this build-up...but that's just plain ignorant...

owenfieldreams said:
I'd make a different analogy...OU plays GSW/HOU.ROCKET offense and that fact alone should give Tide fans pause. You underestimate this edition of OKLAHOMA FOOTBALL at your own peril. You'd think you would have learned your lesson in the Sugar Bowl.

PA Tide Fan · Dec 19, 2018

It's my belief that either OU will change college football or college football will change OU. What I mean by that is if OU wins the NC this season it may cause other teams to mimic them by caring less about recruiting good defensive players and just try and recruit the most dynamic offensive players they can find. On the other hand if OU gets beat it would then make them 0-3 in playoff games and probably force them to finally address their problems on defense.

crimsonaudio · Dec 19, 2018

PA Tide Fan said:
It's my belief that either OU will change college football or college football will change OU.

Considering a team that''s all O and zero D has never won a NC (at least not in my lifetime), I suspect it will take more than one year for teams to believe they have a shot without a focus on defense.

UAinAthens · Dec 19, 2018

The answer to the question, how does it change: when a defensive minded coach shows up and starts winning. Then people will start to learn they have to have defenses.

I think the self fulfilling nature on recruiting is understated in your argument. The results show that defensive players aren't going there, and why would they. The best you could hope for is to be a single standout on a bad defense.

Regarding the argument for good offense over defense, the phrase "defense wins championships" is not just lip service, historically this is true. Last year is evidence. I don't believe Murray is as good as Mayfield was (we'll find out soon enough) but UGA still won by playing better defense and enough offense.

This year our offense is better, our defense is as good or better. Their offense might be as good, I don't believe it, but their defense is definitely not as good. One thing for sure, its going to be settled soon.

selmaborntidefan · Dec 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
Lol. My God. Has any one team gotten that much mileage out of one meaningless football game? Saban used that game for one reason: getting ready for next season. It was no accident that it was Henry’s coming out party.

to be fair, Boise State did.

theballguy · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
I'd make a different analogy...OU plays GSW/HOU.ROCKET offense and that fact alone should give Tide fans pause. You underestimate this edition of OKLAHOMA FOOTBALL at your own peril. You'd think you would have learned your lesson in the Sugar Bowl.

Way different team across the board from the 2013 edition. That was our first season lightening the defense a tad and we still managed to win the "softball" game against A&M (who had a Kyler Murray-like QB iirc). Our defense of that season still had its problems though (see Iron Bowl for that season). Bama fans could say we handled Murray pretty well when he was at A&M but that would be as bad as an argument about our play in a Sugar Bowl that we simply were not interested in.

PacadermaTideUs · Dec 19, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
Considering a team that''s all O and zero D has never won a NC (at least not in my lifetime), I suspect it will take more than one year for teams to believe they have a shot without a focus on defense.

The last 15 National Champions and their respective defensive ranks in terms of yards per game allowed:

2017 Alabama (1)
2016 Clemson (10)
2015 Alabama (1)
2014 Ohio State (11)
2013 Florida State (3)
2012 Alabama (1)
2011 Alabama (1)
2010 Auburn (56)
2009 Alabama (4)
2008 Florida (8)
2007 Louisiana State (3)
2006 Florida (10)
2005 Texas (9)
2004 Southern California (5)
2003 Louisiana State (1)

Even if you include the AP's choice for 2003 (which I don't), USC still had a 29th ranked defense. With very few outliers (Auburn '10, USC '03), no Champion has ranked outside of the top 11, and only one has ranked outside of the top 10. In fact, excluding Auburn in '10 and USC in '03, the remaining 14 Champions have an average rank of 4.9 in terms of yards per game allowed.

It's cliche because it's true: "Defense wins Championships". Offense gets you in the discussion, but if you don't have a D, someone who does, almost always, will prevent you from sealing the deal.

This year's playoff contenders:

Alabama (7)
Clemson (4)
Notre Dame (19)
Oklahoma (102)

Good luck Sooners.

owenfieldreams · Dec 19, 2018

Let's just say I took umbrage at any comparison to Loyola Marymount. Now, as it pertains to that Sugar Bowl; as I've repeatedly said, it's our most recent data point. We don't play you guys enough to be able to reflect on comparisons so the Sugar Bowl is at least something to touch on...same underdog status; numerous future pros on the Tide roster 2 of whom were in the secondary ( Dix & Collins); C.J. Mosley's and Derrick Henry oh, and that WR now lighting it up with the Cowboys. That team was one fluke FG return from winning an NC. We were supposedly no match. We are supposedly no match this year. It's a valid comparison. We may get blown out but frankly, however the game turns out it's highly unlikely to reverse the trend I've noticed on this board that wasnt there 15 years ago when I first joined. There's an arrogance that has permeated TideFans. It's understandable but no less aggravating. I've never said one thing that dinegrates the Tide program. All I do is try and speak to OU and give an unvarnished viewpoint of the Sooners. You can keep dishing the Big 12, you can trash our D, you can rag on Coach Stoops...its all good. We will play the game.

bamatex82 · Dec 19, 2018

uafan4life said:
...Finally, the last question one might ask is, "How can it be fixed?"

The usual answer to fixing problems in college football centers around coaching hires...

The seed may have been planted by Kansas with the hire of Coach Miles. His achilles heel was his offenses. His defense were always one of the best. IF he can recruit and turn things around there, he may change the culture in the Big 12. I won't be holding by breath, but it may be what Kansas is hoping for when they hired him. I hope he can pull it off.

Bamabuzzard · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
Let's just say I took umbrage at any comparison to Loyola Marymount. Now, as it pertains to that Sugar Bowl; as I've repeatedly said, it's our most recent data point. We don't play you guys enough to be able to reflect on comparisons so the Sugar Bowl is at least something to touch on...same underdog status; numerous future pros on the Tide roster 2 of whom were in the secondary ( Dix & Collins); C.J. Mosley's and Derrick Henry oh, and that WR now lighting it up with the Cowboys. That team was one fluke FG return from winning an NC. We were supposedly no match. We are supposedly no match this year. It's a valid comparison. We may get blown out but frankly, however the game turns out it's highly unlikely to reverse the trend I've noticed on this board that wasnt there 15 years ago when I first joined. There's an arrogance that has permeated TideFans. It's understandable but no less aggravating. I've never said one thing that dinegrates the Tide program. All I do is try and speak to OU and give an unvarnished viewpoint of the Sooners. You can keep dishing the Big 12, you can trash our D, you can rag on Coach Stoops...its all good. We will play the game.

Of course there's arrogance. There's arrogance with OU fans in general. Matter of fact, living in Northwest, LA I unfortunately have to be around more Sooner fans than I care to. The majority of them I run into display the same level of arrogance Bama fans do, minus the 5 national titles in 9 years dynasty run. I'm not sure where the "mutual respect" mantra came from about these two programs. I'll probably find it when I find bigfoot. I've yet to meet a sooner fan in person who shows much of any respect for anything Bama. And again, seeing where I live I've run into enough of them that if it actually existed I would have long saw it.

Both fanbases have a lot of arrogance running through it. Neither side can deny that with a straight face. But one is a helluva lot more justified than the other. To be honest, I'm surprised Bama's fanbase isn't more arrogant than what it is, seeing the type run we're on. Any other fanbase couldn't handle this type success. :biggrin2:

RollTide_HTTR · Dec 19, 2018

Some call it arrogance, I call it reality.

crimsonaudio · Dec 19, 2018

owenfieldreams said:
Let's just say I took umbrage at any comparison to Loyola Marymount. Now, as it pertains to that Sugar Bowl; as I've repeatedly said, it's our most recent data point. We don't play you guys enough to be able to reflect on comparisons so the Sugar Bowl is at least something to touch on...same underdog status; numerous future pros on the Tide roster 2 of whom were in the secondary ( Dix & Collins); C.J. Mosley's and Derrick Henry oh, and that WR now lighting it up with the Cowboys. That team was one fluke FG return from winning an NC. We were supposedly no match. We are supposedly no match this year. It's a valid comparison. We may get blown out but frankly, however the game turns out it's highly unlikely to reverse the trend I've noticed on this board that wasnt there 15 years ago when I first joined. There's an arrogance that has permeated TideFans. It's understandable but no less aggravating. I've never said one thing that dinegrates the Tide program. All I do is try and speak to OU and give an unvarnished viewpoint of the Sooners. You can keep dishing the Big 12, you can trash our D, you can rag on Coach Stoops...its all good. We will play the game.

You're visiting our board, repeatedly bringing up a game from four years ago that has literally no bearing whatsoever on either team playing on the 29th - and continue to call us smug and arrogant? Physician, heal thyself!

Here's why 2014 doesn't matter (hint, you actually played some D then):
OU 2014 scoring D: 55th
OU 2014 rushing D: 8th
OU 2014 passing D: 120th
OU 2014 total D: 52nd

OU 2018 scoring D: 96th
OU 2018 rushing D: 53rd
OU 2018 passing D: 129th
OU 2018 total D: 108th

I don't think any of this will matter to you because you somehow feel that our having confidence in a team that plays on both sides of the ball likely beating a team that only plays on one side of the ball is arrogance, despite our explanation of our reasoning over and over. While I generally enjoy having opposing fans post here, I'm tired of you calling our fans names. If you don't like our attitude, stick to your land thieve sites where you can all stoke each others' ago about how this offense is unstoppable (despite the fact that lesser teams stopped them this year).

This games actually means something, unlike 2014, so forgive us for having confidence that Bama will show up ready to play for 60 minutes.

Or don't - I honestly don't care anymore. Just remember that you're a guest here - drop the insults.

A Treatise on the Problem of Defense in the Big 12

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