A Treatise on the Problem of Defense in the Big 12

wishbonesooner · Dec 19, 2018

You may well be right. Whatever happens, I will be here to offer congratulations. You aren't playing Slippery Rock or Rutgers. We've been lit up before. The sun always comes up the next day. I'd much rather watch my Sooners go up against Bama than watch somebody else. OU will throw the house at you and see what happens. Nobody thinks we have a chance, so what have we got to lose? There is no fear in Sooner Land. We are proud to line up against Bama.

crimsonaudio · Dec 19, 2018

wishbonesooner said:
There is no fear in Sooner Land. We are proud to line up against Bama.

Ditto - glad Bama gets a shot to prove themselves against you guys.

CoolBreeze · Dec 19, 2018

Heavyweight thread right here. Great points to start the discussion, good counter pointing from some of the most highly esteemed rival posters we have on this board and a little friction to spice it all up. We have two bigtime opponents here about to scrap it out for the right to play for a National Championship. Sooners are confident as are we. Wishbone is correct...if we let overconfidence get us like it did once before in a semifinal (Ohio State) then they are primed to take us out. But we do not think that can happen because, well, it has happened to us once before and Nick is just not going to allow for that twice. Anyway, very entertaining thread! Keep it coming. We still have a week and a half to come out with more analysis or keep beating the stew out of dead horses.

bamaga · Dec 19, 2018

I for one hate any game over 35 points. A good hard fought, hard hitting 24-17, 28-24 or even 31-28 is a much better game to me than a 56-51 game. Unfortunately, that’s the direction we are headed.

CoolBreeze · Dec 19, 2018

RollTide_HTTR said:
Some call it arrogance, I call it reality.

"They say I'm Cocky and I said What ?!?!..."

tusks_n_raider · Dec 19, 2018

Well hasn't this been a 'Fun' read. We permeate arrogance huh? That's rich.

Here is where I stand. I recognize that OU has the #1 Scoring Offense in the NCAA. It's impressive.... but it also has to come with the understanding that they have poured it on the other team for 60 minutes every week because they've HAD to BECAUSE their own Defense is so TERRIBLE.

I take umbrage with OU fans (and some Alabama fans) being seemingly dismissive of Alabama having the #2 Scoring Offense in the NCAA against MUCH better defenses. Plus you have to factor in how many games we called off the dogs right after the 2nd half started.

OU has scored 643 points this year and Alabama has scored 623. A mere 20 point difference and 8 of those points are missed XP's by our PK's. The difference is really 1 TD and 2 FG's. That's it.......

So for all the talk about the OU firepower our own team is right there with you.

Our own Defense on the other hand is ranked #4 in Scoring D while OU is ranked 96th.... NINETY-SIXTH!!!!

Why wouldn't Alabama fans be confident about their complete team with a comparable High-powered Offense facing another team that's 1-sided and trails us by over 90 spots in Defense??

I'm so tired of all the talk. Bring it..... just bring it.....

Dec 29th can't get here fast enough.

cmmiller711 · Dec 20, 2018

uafan4life said:
- 4 five-star defensive recruits (all to Texas)
- 20 top-100 defensive recruits (almost all to Texas or Oklahoma with most going to Texas)
- 47 top-250 defensive recruits

In contrast, Alabama by itself during that time has recruited 9 five-star, 19 top-100, and 37 top-250 defensive recruits.

wishbonesooner · Dec 20, 2018

Good points, and no doubt Tide fans have every reason to be confident. While there is no running around wringing our hands and saying "Oh no, we have to play Bama", Sooner fans that have a lick of sense know the task is an uphill battle. We have to hope for maybe a couple of turnovers, maybe a mistake in the kicking game, maybe the team having the same attitude as the fans that there's no way they can lose. I expect Lincoln Riley to onside kick, maybe the opening kickoff, run a fake punt or field goal. He has nothing to lose, maybe Bama is too fired up early. Don't expect OU to come in scared to play Bama. We've been in one or two big ballgames over the last 60 or 70 years too. I'm just hoping an injury doesn't play any part for either team.

crimsonaudio · Dec 20, 2018

wishbonesooner said:
We have to hope for maybe a couple of turnovers, maybe a mistake in the kicking game, maybe the team having the same attitude as the fans that there's no way they can lose.

Two points:
1- zero chance the players and coaches feel this way, and
2- 99% of Bama fans (at least here) don't believe "there's no way they can lose"

NationalTitles18 · Dec 20, 2018

No offense to our guests, but I'm not convinced all of them have a firm grasp of the definition of "arrogance".

*waits for everyone to return from their favorite online dictionary*

1. Given the achievements of the program it is almost impossible for Alabama fans to have an exaggerated sense of importance. Nearly all fans recognize there is a chance for the Tide to lose and nearly all respect the Sooner program enough to realize Alabama could lose to them if the Sooners have an outstanding game and/or Bama has an off game.

2. If you are offended by our fans exuding confidence during this, the greatest of great college football dynasties, on an Alabama internet forum then the problem may lie with you more than the fans here. Expecting anything else would be folly.

The real difference between now and 15 years ago is the difference in the two programs. Back then it was OU competing for and winning national championships and Alabama hoping to return to the top with an incomplete team and overmatched athletes. Now the roles have reversed.

gtgilbert · Dec 20, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
Regarding Recruiting:
Actually, OU currently has a 247sports 5-star in junior LB Caleb Kelly. Moreover, most services (including Rivals) also rated OU freshman DB Brendan Radley-Hiles a 5-star, plus OU has a number of high 4-stars on defense. I think you’ll agree with me that Mississippi State has a strong defense this year. If you add up the talent on their two-deep by simply counting stars (as your analysis did), OU has recruited much better (83 total stars to 69 total stars). Clearly counting stars is a poor indicator. I feel a much better indicator is experience: Mississippi State has 6 underclassman in their two-deep defensive roster while OU has 13 underclassman in their two-deep defensive roster.
j

regarding experience: On Alabama's 2 deep defensive depth chart, depending on the week (there are some guys that pop back and forth between 2nd and 3rd and even the #3 guys have roles in some alignments), there are between 10-13 underclassmen.

So while experience certainly matters and generally I'd think more experience is better it might not be a much better indicator than stars, although while 83 versus 69 sounds like a big difference, on a per player basis it's only 3.77 versus 3.13 so the difference isn't what you might think.

makes me wonder, having had decent recruits on D at OU, why is the D where it is? Let's be real. The stat that matters is that teams more often than not, score more points against OU than they average on the season.

Just for fun, on offense we have SEVEN underclassmen starting, not including Waddle or Najee harris who play a TON. On the two deep there are 13.

92tide · Dec 20, 2018

NationalTitles17 said:
No offense to our guests, but I'm not convinced all of them have a firm grasp of the definition of "arrogance".

*waits for everyone to return from their favorite online dictionary*

1. Given the achievements of the program it is almost impossible for Alabama fans to have an exaggerated sense of importance. Nearly all fans recognize there is a chance for the Tide to lose and nearly all respect the Sooner program enough to realize Alabama could lose to them if the Sooners have an outstanding game and/or Bama has an off game.

2. If you are offended by our fans exuding confidence during this, the greatest of great college football dynasties, on an Alabama internet forum then the problem may lie with you more than the fans here. Expecting anything else would be folly.

The real difference between now and 15 years ago is the difference in the two programs. Back then it was OU competing for and winning national championships and Alabama hoping to return to the top with an incomplete team and overmatched athletes. Now the roles have reversed.

but it's different than when fran and shula were here. why can't we all be more like that

CoolBreeze · Dec 20, 2018

wishbonesooner said:
Good points, and no doubt Tide fans have every reason to be confident. While there is no running around wringing our hands and saying "Oh no, we have to play Bama", Sooner fans that have a lick of sense know the task is an uphill battle. We have to hope for maybe a couple of turnovers, maybe a mistake in the kicking game, maybe the team having the same attitude as the fans that there's no way they can lose. I expect Lincoln Riley to onside kick, maybe the opening kickoff, run a fake punt or field goal. He has nothing to lose, maybe Bama is too fired up early. Don't expect OU to come in scared to play Bama. We've been in one or two big ballgames over the last 60 or 70 years too. I'm just hoping an injury doesn't play any part for either team.

Wishbone, I get the sense that the Sooner fans think we are disrespecting them here. That is not the case. Yea, things have changed on this board since you first came over during our home and home. They have changed since that Sugar Bowl matchup. We are the top dog in College Football and we do not apologize for it. That is not to say we cannot lose this game because we certainly can. But what has changed here is that we expect to win every game and we feel that we are the better team in any matchup including this one. All of your points are well taken and I, for one, appreciate the discussion. But if any Sooner fan comes on this board at this particular time in history and gives us any argument that your league or offense or quarterback or offensive line or anything of the such has any superiority to us then you are going to have 100 Tide fans making arguments to the contrary. And it will get heated because we (just like you) are very passionate about our football. We feel we are the better team and that includes me. But I am not going on your boards carrying that torch. I love the civil discourse and highly respect OU but don't be mistaken. We (our fans and this program) have our target on another National Championship and I do not care who you are...I don't think there is a team that can beat us if we are playing our A game and we all feel that is what our next opponent is up against.

tusks_n_raider · Dec 20, 2018

NationalTitles17 said:
No offense to our guests, but I'm not convinced all of them have a firm grasp of the definition of "arrogance".

*waits for everyone to return from their favorite online dictionary*

1. Given the achievements of the program it is almost impossible for Alabama fans to have an exaggerated sense of importance. Nearly all fans recognize there is a chance for the Tide to lose and nearly all respect the Sooner program enough to realize Alabama could lose to them if the Sooners have an outstanding game and/or Bama has an off game.

2. If you are offended by our fans exuding confidence during this, the greatest of great college football dynasties, on an Alabama internet forum then the problem may lie with you more than the fans here. Expecting anything else would be folly.

The real difference between now and 15 years ago is the difference in the two programs. Back then it was OU competing for and winning national championships and Alabama hoping to return to the top with an incomplete team and overmatched athletes. Now the roles have reversed.

I'll also add that not ONCE during this entire run from 2008- today have I ever gone to a rival board and talked smack before, during, or after a game. I haven't behaved that way in person either.

But THIS is an Alabama board so we can pat ourselves on the back all we want and that's still not 'Arrogance'.

We can stick up for our players and coaches when rival fans come on here and try and poke holes in our Squad and it's not 'Arrogance'.

We have Pride in our program yes......and we are PROUD of THIS team and the others that came before it.

Nothing wrong with that in my book.

OU fans coming on here and scolding us on etiquette and throwing the 2013/14 game in our face is something else though...... some might say Brash even.

DzynKingRTR · Dec 20, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
Two points:
1- zero chance the players and coaches feel this way, and
2- 99% of Bama fans (at least here) don't believe "there's no way they can lose"

The worst thing that happened to Oklahoma was UGA playing Bama close. It gave the team and the fans a reality check. If Bama had blown out UGA, they might have come in a bit cocky.

PacadermaTideUs · Dec 20, 2018

In owenfielddreams' defense (who first introduced the "arrogance" charge to this thread), he's been around this board long enough to, I imagine, feel like he's not so much of a guest, but more of a permanent resident, and therefore entitled to have a vocal critical opinion of this board and it's home-team members.

Make no mistake about it though (and I'm sure many of our other long-time rival posters realize this), it's still a Bama house, and if you're not flying that flag, I think you're on at least a somewhat shorter leash.

In the end, we're all BamaNation's guests.

tusks_n_raider · Dec 20, 2018

DzynKingRTR said:
The worst thing that happened to Oklahoma was UGA playing Bama close. It gave the team and the fans a reality check. If Bama had blown out UGA, they might have come in a bit cocky.

The team is TICKED OFF right now to be honest.

They are Angry over all the 'Shootout' talk like it's just a foregone conclusion that OU will drop 40+ all over them.....

They are also not Happy over the Heisman finish.

I'm expecting the team to play MAD and more specifically the Defense. We all know how well that usually works out for opponents.

CrimsonForce · Dec 20, 2018

Saw this stat which really puts into perspective the difference in the defense of the two teams:

Oklahoma has given up 421 points in 13 games this season. To find 421 points given up by the Alabama defense you have to add up the combined points allowed in the last 31 games dating back to the 2016 Iron Bowl.

Pretty staggering when you think about it that way..

Trjtrjtrj · Dec 20, 2018

gtgilbert said:
makes me wonder, having had decent recruits on D at OU, why is the D where it is? Let's be real. The stat that matters is that teams more often than not, score more points against OU than they average on the season.

Well, a lot of Sooners have been wondering how we can get back to a suffocating defense.

I think Mike Stoops' idea was to get "tweener" players that were not the traditional Big XII speedy guys, but they weren't the traditional "let's go stop a top-notch power run team" type player either. Rather, he tried to adequately cover both needs with tweener-sized players and complicated defenses. The thought was we just have to win the Big XII, then we have to be able to beat the power games of B1G and SEC offenses. Unfortunately, offenses in the Big XII were able to get our young pups confused with which complicated strategy to apply in real time. It would probably help matters if every elite team forsakes the power game and goes to wide-open offenses. [Maybe I'm making all of this up -- it's just what seems right to me.]

I don't think forming a defense around excelling (e.g., perfect execution) on something really simple would work in the Big XII either. Snyder (Kansas State) used to go that route, but Big XII offensive coordinators begin to exploit KSU teams. To be fair, Snyder was typically working with 2-star and 3-star material to begin with. For instance, one team might go with a passing attack that features 5'10" world-class sprinters, and another team might go with 6'6" basketball jumpers. Both teams have QBs that can throw the ball perfectly for their their receive corp: the jump ball for the basketball jumpers; a combination of back-shoulder-fades and fly-patters for the burners. Now pick your cornerback strategy.

I honestly don't know the road back to those ultra defenses of Sooners past. Mike Stoops has an excellent football mind, but he was working with 18 and 19 year old kids and things just didn't gel. My hope is that Riley is a sharp enough offensive mind that he can identify a great defensive mind. Stay tuned.

B1GTide · Dec 20, 2018

Trjtrjtrj said:
I honestly don't know the road back to those ultra defenses of Sooners past. Mike Stoops has an excellent football mind, but he was working with 18 and 19 year old kids and things just didn't gel. My hope is that Riley is a sharp enough offensive mind that he can identify a great defensive mind. Stay tuned.

JMO, but I think that your problem starts and ends with recruiting. I don't follow your program's recruiting, but it is clear that something is broken when you look at the roster. You have championship caliber offensive talent, and tier 2 (at best) defensive talent. Combine that with the offenses that you face, along with the poor coaching, and you get tier 3 defensive performance.

You need to figure out why elite defensive players are not interested in the Sooners and fix that.

A Treatise on the Problem of Defense in the Big 12

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