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  1. #14
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Displaced Bama Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Always those damned bankers and the military industrial complex.

    We were warned...right?

  2. #15
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced Bama Fan View Post
    Always those damned bankers and the military industrial complex.

    We were warned...right?
    Yes, we were. And Goldwater warned about the religionists...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  3. #16
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    The fact that we shipped all of our manufacturing jobs to Japan then to China and other locations over the last thirty years is one of the reasons we have this rise of aggressive white nationalism. There is little room for discussion of the finer points of affirmative action when we have shuttered major cities in the mid west where the middle class both black and white once aspired to the American dream.
    We lost these jobs mainly due to NAFTA, although it began after WW2 propping up Japan, and then sending mfg jobs to Taiwan. Used to be a man could skip college and enter the workforce at one of the local mfg plants and after several years make enough to buy a home and raise a family. Not any more, that whole option died when Clinton signed NAFTA, now without college it is next to impossible to be able to afford a home. What jobs there are don't pay enough and don't have benefits. The jobs gone to Mexico since the mid 90's have killed the middle class, now factor in Obamacare and not only are there not good paying jobs, unless you are very poor or very rich, your health care costs have skyrocketed.

    I used to make around $65K plus good benefits working in electronics mfg, one by one those plants in my area (Middle TN) closed to go to Mexico. I tried farming and raising cattle (no benefits) and barely broke even, now I work by the hour making about $30K with no benefits. There are millions like me all over the country and IMO that's one of the reasons Trump got elected. Trump ran on hope and change similar to Obama, but unlike Obama, things are getting better not worse. I am definitely worse off than I was 20 years ago and I know exactly what the reasons are. Democrats passing NAFTA and Obamacare, those two things have done more to hurt the middle class than anything else. Maybe not in every area but certainly in mine,

  4. #17
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valley View View Post
    We lost these jobs mainly due to NAFTA, although it began after WW2 propping up Japan, and then sending mfg jobs to Taiwan. Used to be a man could skip college and enter the workforce at one of the local mfg plants and after several years make enough to buy a home and raise a family. Not any more, that whole option died when Clinton signed NAFTA, now without college it is next to impossible to be able to afford a home. What jobs there are don't pay enough and don't have benefits. The jobs gone to Mexico since the mid 90's have killed the middle class, now factor in Obamacare and not only are there not good paying jobs, unless you are very poor or very rich, your health care costs have skyrocketed.

    I used to make around $65K plus good benefits working in electronics mfg, one by one those plants in my area (Middle TN) closed to go to Mexico. I tried farming and raising cattle (no benefits) and barely broke even, now I work by the hour making about $30K with no benefits. There are millions like me all over the country and IMO that's one of the reasons Trump got elected. Trump ran on hope and change similar to Obama, but unlike Obama, things are getting better not worse. I am definitely worse off than I was 20 years ago and I know exactly what the reasons are. Democrats passing NAFTA and Obamacare, those two things have done more to hurt the middle class than anything else. Maybe not in every area but certainly in mine,
    I do really feel sorry for you, both for your problems and your understanding of their genesis...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  5. #18
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Yes, we were. And Goldwater warned about the religionists...
    And the Bankers & Military Industrial complex knocked off at least one president...or so fables, rhymes and conspiracy theorists would have us believe. I believe it...

  6. #19
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    So much of this current stream of quasi-mea culpas and "calling out" in the Republican Sound Machine (hat tip, jthomas666) falls flat.

    These guys will make these seeming come-to-Jesus statements, then go back to their agit-prop and support for the Republican/Trump agenda.

    I would love to see an ounce or two of cojones among Republicans on the Hill. Back up those strident statements with hard decisions that go against the grain of the Trump's loyalists.

  7. #20
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bazza's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    It's us against them...not us against us.

    Been saying that for a long time.

    Politicians getting rich off us against us.

    Don't see things ever changing until you reign back all the money involved in politics.

    Just the amount spent in advertising is absurd.

    But you don't hear that being mentioned.

    I don't care whose side you're on....anyone who says the system is screwed up should be heard and their message not only considered --- but developed into a movement.

  8. #21
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
    It's us against them...not us against us.

    Been saying that for a long time.

    Politicians getting rich off us against us.

    Don't see things ever changing until you reign back all the money involved in politics.

    Just the amount spent in advertising is absurd.

    But you don't hear that being mentioned.

    I don't care whose side you're on....anyone who says the system is screwed up should be heard and their message not only considered --- but developed into a movement.
    Then we need to repeal Citizens United and go back to one man - one vote...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  9. #22
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bazza's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Then we need to repeal Citizens United and go back to one man - one vote...
    That would be fine with me.

    Don't think it's possible though.

  10. #23
    BamaNation Hall of Fame cbi1972's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Then we need to repeal Citizens United and go back to one man - one vote...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
    That would be fine with me.

    Don't think it's possible though.
    Citizens United gets most of the attention, but it didn't really change much

    Citizens simply has not had the seismic legal impact that many think. Since Buckley protected money as speech, the only question was whether corporations were legitimate speakers. It may surprise some to hear, but the Court had already answered this question in 1978. In First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, the Supreme Court recognized a corporate right to free speech, concluding that the value of speech in the course of political debate does not depend on the identity of the speaker. Citizens simply followed the precedent of these two cases.

    So when liberals intone that “corporations aren’t people,” thinking they are making a knock-down argument against Citizens, they miss the point. Citizens did not make corporations persons. And corporations do not need to be persons to receive First Amendment protections. Citizens upheld the liberty, provided by Bellotti, of corporations to speak, and they speak under the rules provided by Buckley.
    Audemus jura nostra defendere
    "When a loaf of bread looks like a banquet, I've no right buying tobacco. " - Grandpa Joe

  11. #24
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Then we need to repeal Citizens United and go back to one man - one vote...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
    That would be fine with me.

    Don't think it's possible though.
    Careful what you wish for.

    It's not much of a step from there to abolition of the Senate. Because, after all, if Wyoming has the same number of Senate votes as, say, New York or California, doesn't that mean that the vote of a citizen of Wyoming counts (literally) about 70x that of a citizen of CA?

    If the Senate goes away, so does the Electoral College, which means that CA, NY, TX, and FL determine the national elections. Those states are the main sources of undocumented / illegal (take your pick) immigration. Two of them are heavy blue. The other two are razor-thin one way or the other.

    So is there any wonder that the blues want unrestrained immigration? It would ensure their political power for several generations or until the economy collapses, whichever comes first.

    And the delicious irony is that the Senate was created precisely to prevent minorities -- in this case, residents of less populous states -- from being steamrolled by the unbridled majority -- in this case, the residents of more populous states. Without it, the Constitution would never have been ratified.

    So, today, the very party that purports to protect minority interests is actually fighting tooth and nail to create a minority for the specific purpose of milking it dry.

    How sweet is that?
    Last edited by 4Q Basket Case; January 15th, 2019 at 07:35 PM.
    You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

  12. #25
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    Careful what you wish for.

    It's not much of a step from there to abolition of the Senate. Because, after all, if Wyoming has the same number of Senate votes as, say, New York or California, doesn't that mean that the vote of a citizen of Wyoming counts (literally) about 70x that of a citizen of CA?

    If the Senate goes away, so does the Electoral College, which means that CA, NY, TX, and FL determine the national elections. Those states are the main sources of undocumented / illegal (take your pick) immigration. Two of them are heavy blue. The other two are razor-thin one way or the other.

    So is there any wonder that the blues want unrestrained immigration? It would ensure their political power for several generations or until the economy collapses, whichever comes first.

    And the delicious irony is that the Senate was created precisely to prevent minorities -- in this case, residents of less populous states -- from being steamrolled by the unbridled majority -- in this case, the residents of more populous states. Without it, the Constitution would never have been ratified.

    So, today, the very party that purports to protect minority interests is actually fighting tooth and nail to create a minority for the specific purpose of milking it dry.

    How sweet is that?
    that is not true.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.

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  13. #26
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    Re: Well! How now, Tucker?

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    that is not true.
    OK....so what is the truth of the blue position on immigration?

    If it is not to create a cadre of voters big enough to swing the vote in Texas and Florida (no need in NY or CA...you're already far ahead there), what is it?

    What distinguishes sanctuary cities and extending both the vote and citizens' benefits to non-citizens, as a practical matter, from Roosevelt trying to pack SCOTUS?

    For that matter, what is the definition of citizen, beyond being someone who really, really wants to be here?
    You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

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