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Thread: The Tax Thread

  1. #53
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CharminTide View Post
    I don't see the two ideas as mutually exclusive. I'm completely on board with proposals to increase wages for the poor and middle class, whether we're talking raising the minimum wage, codetermination, and/or some form of corporate tax incentives that increase worker pay.



    This has sorta been the core conservative idea for decades. It's why conservatives have defended giving the rich all the money: because they supposedly make good capitalist decisions that filter down and help elevate everyone else. But that simply hasn't been true. Yes, government has some inherent inefficiency. It's also true that the combustion engine is an inherently inefficient machine. But at the end of the day, your small personal jug of gasoline isn't going to help move a group of people from point A to B. The bus that it fuels will.

    Having slightly higher wages isn't going to help when you get cancer, but large-scale tax-funded risk pooling will. Having a few extra dollars isn't going to keep your car from breaking an axle in an unrepaired pothole, but tax-funded infrastructure maintenance will. An additional $20 each week won't help when your house is on fire, but the fire truck that your county purchased will. Hell, your savings account is probably insured by the federal government, and the potency of that dollar is kept strong by the government too. I could go on for pages, and you know it.

    Now, I realize that it's in vogue to say that the government is a wasteful, lumbering beast that doesn't deserve tax revenue. But it's absolute fact that taxes make it possible to do things that no individual or small community ever could, and I feel that gets lost in the propaganda. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of eliminating systemic government waste, military boondoggle, and other unnecessary spending. But I feel like this conservative mantra of "taxation=theft" and the variations thereof are glib and dishonest (I'm not saying you're being this way btw, I just don't want the thread to spiral in that direction). And FWIW, if Charmin's view of tax policy came to pass, the proposed tax increases on the 1% would be accompanied by tax relief for lower and middle income tax brackets.
    well said.
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  3. #54
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Playing along with the original poster's suggestion. I would rather enact a progressive corporate tax on certain size companies that benefited their middle class and below employees. The company would have the option of either paying this tax to the government, or distributing it to their employees below the "upper management" level. Giving the company a dollar for dollar credit against this tax at fiscal year end. If the distribution to the employees did not equal the tax, then the balance would be owed to the federal government in corporate taxes. So in essence the tax is "telling" the company "You're either going to pay the money to us or your employees. But either way you're paying the money."

    Having rich people pay more taxes directly to the government does absolutely nothing for middle class workers whose wages haven't kept up with inflation for decades. IMO, enacting a 70% income tax on the rich just gives the government more money to waste and we all know that's what would happen.
    Youíre not old enough to remember, but this is how it worked in the 60ís except it was an honor system; government didnít threaten anything, they just taxed profits heavily. This was incentive for companies to give workers raises (reducing profits).
    Now that taxes are dropped and write offs are plentiful, no need to give workers ď meritĒ raises - and they havenít for years, instead pocketing record profits.
    You are proposing the same thing.


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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CharminTide View Post
    I don't see the two ideas as mutually exclusive. I'm completely on board with proposals to increase wages for the poor and middle class, whether we're talking raising the minimum wage, codetermination, and/or some form of corporate tax incentives that increase worker pay.



    This has sorta been the core conservative idea for decades. It's why conservatives have defended giving the rich all the money: because they supposedly make good capitalist decisions that filter down and help elevate everyone else. But that simply hasn't been true. Yes, government has some inherent inefficiency. It's also true that the combustion engine is an inherently inefficient machine. But at the end of the day, your small personal jug of gasoline isn't going to help move a group of people from point A to B. The bus that it fuels will.

    Having slightly higher wages isn't going to help when you get cancer, but large-scale tax-funded risk pooling will. Having a few extra dollars isn't going to keep your car from breaking an axle in an unrepaired pothole, but tax-funded infrastructure maintenance will. An additional $20 each week won't help when your house is on fire, but the fire truck that your county purchased will. Hell, your savings account is probably insured by the federal government, and the potency of that dollar is kept strong by the government too. I could go on for pages, and you know it.

    Now, I realize that it's in vogue to say that the government is a wasteful, lumbering beast that doesn't deserve tax revenue. But it's absolute fact that taxes make it possible to do things that no individual or small community ever could, and I feel that gets lost in the propaganda. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of eliminating systemic government waste, military boondoggle, and other unnecessary spending. But I feel like this conservative mantra of "taxation=theft" and the variations thereof are glib and dishonest (I'm not saying you're being this way btw, I just don't want the thread to spiral in that direction). And FWIW, if Charmin's view of tax policy came to pass, the proposed tax increases on the 1% would be accompanied by tax relief for lower and middle income tax brackets.

    I work for the government, specifically in the educational sector on both the federal and state level. And to be more specific I am on the accounting and reporting side. I am not saying or suggesting no good comes from the government nor am I saying that taxes are bad. What I am saying is I see on a daily basis things like the government needing $50,000,000 to run a $10,000,000 educational grant. The waste I see on a daily basis would nauseate and infuriate you as a taxpayer. Or it should. Taxes have come to be = "theft" in the minds of many because of what I see on a daily basis. Waste that go way beyond "some inherent inefficiencies". And to think the sector of government I work in is the only sector of government run this way would be naive of me or anyone competent enough to fog a mirror. The majority of government operates this way. From federal all the way down to the state level. If I ran my family's finances like the government does with taxpayer's money. I would have long been bankrupt. I have zero issue with collecting taxes, or collecting "more taxes". But I have a real problem when the government continues to want to take in more taxes while giving a middle finger to their fiduciary duty to manage the taxes they are already collecting. The government has zero interest and zero incentive of cutting wasteful spending when "collecting more" is available to them. Thinking that simply implementing a tax that brings in more taxes from the 1% will automatically lower middle class taxes is assuming that the additional monies brought in would be used and managed in an efficient manner. But my daily experience of how government works first hand tells me otherwise.
    Last edited by Bamabuzzard; January 16th, 2019 at 11:31 PM.
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by twofbyc View Post
    Youíre not old enough to remember, but this is how it worked in the 60ís except it was an honor system; government didnít threaten anything, they just taxed profits heavily. This was incentive for companies to give workers raises (reducing profits).
    Now that taxes are dropped and write offs are plentiful, no need to give workers ď meritĒ raises - and they havenít for years, instead pocketing record profits.
    You are proposing the same thing.


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    And I have no problem with that. Because the corporation, rather than paying the money in taxes to the government, pay it to their employees. Their employees benefit with more in their bank account, and the company benefits because of higher employee morale, and a more productive/loyal worker.
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  6. #57
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    And I have no problem with that. Because the corporation, rather than paying the money in taxes to the government, pay it to their employees. Their employees benefit with more in their bank account, and the company benefits because of higher employee morale, and a more productive/loyal worker.
    That was the premise behind the last tax cut, but it hasn't worked out that way. Corporations, rather than pay higher wages, have used their cash surpluses in massive stock buy-backs. I'm surprised you haven't been seeing that in the news...
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    That was the premise behind the last tax cut, but it hasn't worked out that way. Corporations, rather than pay higher wages, have used their cash surpluses in massive stock buy-backs. I'm surprised you haven't been seeing that in the news...
    With three boys involved in sports and a middle school girl in violin. I barely have time to watch or read the news other than a few quick glances here and there. Hell, I was only able to watch two Bama games from start to finish this season. LOL! I'm not sure whose idea it was to have all these kids.
    The existence of God isn't determined in the thoughts of man. God exists, no matter what man thinks.

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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    I work for the government, specifically in the educational sector on both the federal and state level. And to be more specific I am on the accounting and reporting side. I am not saying or suggesting no good comes from the government nor am I saying that taxes are bad. What I am saying is I see on a daily basis things like the government needing $50,000,000 to run a $10,000,000 educational grant. The waste I see on a daily basis would nauseate and infuriate you as a taxpayer. Or it should. Taxes have come to be = "theft" in the minds of many because of what I see on a daily basis. Waste that go way beyond "some inherent inefficiencies". And to think the sector of government I work in is the only sector of government run this way would be naive of me or anyone competent enough to fog a mirror. The majority of government operates this way. From federal all the way down to the state level. If I ran my family's finances like the government does with taxpayer's money. I would have long been bankrupt. I have zero issue with collecting taxes, or collecting "more taxes". But I have a real problem when the government continues to want to take in more taxes while giving a middle finger to their fiduciary duty to manage the taxes they are already collecting. The government has zero interest and zero incentive of cutting wasteful spending when "collecting more" is available to them. Thinking that simply implementing a tax that brings in more taxes from the 1% will automatically lower middle class taxes is assuming that the additional monies brought in would be used and managed in an efficient manner. But my daily experience of how government works first hand tells me otherwise.
    I agree with you 100% about the waste. I am an accountant for a responsible manufacturer that sells to the government. I hear more about how the buyers are pressuring to spend their budget than how to reduce their spending. They view the amounts that they spend for the government as a sign of their personal worth to the government. Until this ship is turned around I would rather decide what to do with my money than let these power drunken feds have it.

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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bama_wayne1 View Post
    I agree with you 100% about the waste. I am an accountant for a responsible manufacturer that sells to the government. I hear more about how the buyers are pressuring to spend their budget than how to reduce their spending. They view the amounts that they spend for the government as a sign of their personal worth to the government. Until this ship is turned around I would rather decide what to do with my money than let these power drunken feds have it.
    The main problem I see in my sector is the program managers of educational grants inflating the funds needed to run a grant without being questioned why they need that much money to run the grant. So a grant that should really require $10,000,000 gets approved for double, triple and sometimes quadruple that amount. The result is $30,000 worth of iPad's being ordered and never being used or taken out of their boxes. Or $20,000 worth of toner for office printers being ordered when the yearly lease agreement with the copier company includes toner. I could literally go on for days and pile up millions of dollars of examples just out of one educational grant. It's unreal. It truly is.
    The existence of God isn't determined in the thoughts of man. God exists, no matter what man thinks.

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  10. #61
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    https://twitter.com/abc/status/1085884442416099329

    link

    Trump's corporate tax cut may cost $600 billion more than originally projected, according to Bloomberg's Stephen Gandel.
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  11. #62
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CharminTide's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bama_wayne1 View Post
    I agree with you 100% about the waste. I am an accountant for a responsible manufacturer that sells to the government. I hear more about how the buyers are pressuring to spend their budget than how to reduce their spending. They view the amounts that they spend for the government as a sign of their personal worth to the government. Until this ship is turned around I would rather decide what to do with my money than let these power drunken feds have it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    The main problem I see in my sector is the program managers of educational grants inflating the funds needed to run a grant without being questioned why they need that much money to run the grant. So a grant that should really require $10,000,000 gets approved for double, triple and sometimes quadruple that amount. The result is $30,000 worth of iPad's being ordered and never being used or taken out of their boxes. Or $20,000 worth of toner for office printers being ordered when the yearly lease agreement with the copier company includes toner. I could literally go on for days and pile up millions of dollars of examples just out of one educational grant. It's unreal. It truly is.
    Seems like we'd save a lot of money if there were an agency that reviewed itemized expenses from previous years, accounted for use and excess, and then audited the itemized budget proposal for the following year. Enact some form of punishment for over- or under-budgeting beyond a certain threshold and allow these auditors to request justification for unusual purchases, especially in Q4. A lot of work, but this kind of thing seems like a necessary step. Bet it would more than pay for itself.

  12. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CharminTide View Post
    Seems like we'd save a lot of money if there were an agency that reviewed itemized expenses from previous years, accounted for use and excess, and then audited the itemized budget proposal for the following year. Enact some form of punishment for over- or under-budgeting beyond a certain threshold and allow these auditors to request justification for unusual purchases, especially in Q4. A lot of work, but this kind of thing seems like a necessary step. Bet it would more than pay for itself.
    there was a push in the obama administration to do some stuff like this

    link

    Cutting Waste
    Instead of accepting the status quo, President Obama has worked from day one to change how business is done in Washington. Under his direction, the Administration has moved to eliminate wasteful spending, streamline what works, and modernize how government operates to save money and improve performance.

    From scaling back on no-bid contracts and stopping improper payments to getting rid of unneeded Federal real estate and ending out-of-control information technology (IT) projects, the Administration has worked to reform how Washington spends taxpayer dollars. We’ve focused on cutting spending that is wasteful, duplicative, and outdated and improving the way services are delivered to the American people.

    The President has asked the Vice President to lead the “Campaign to Cut Waste,” an initiative to hunt down misspent tax dollars throughout the government, and to build on the accomplishments detailed below:
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  13. #64
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bazza's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CharminTide View Post
    Seems like we'd save a lot of money if there were an agency that reviewed itemized expenses from previous years, accounted for use and excess, and then audited the itemized budget proposal for the following year. Enact some form of punishment for over- or under-budgeting beyond a certain threshold and allow these auditors to request justification for unusual purchases, especially in Q4. A lot of work, but this kind of thing seems like a necessary step. Bet it would more than pay for itself.
    I agree...would be fantastic.

    What are the chances of something like that ever happening though?

    Getting back to the tax discussion - I can see both sides.

    My biggest gripe is how complicated our tax code is.

    Seems like if you need an accountant to do your taxes for you - something is wrong.

  14. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Tax Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
    I agree...would be fantastic.

    What are the chances of something like that ever happening though?

    Getting back to the tax discussion - I can see both sides.

    My biggest gripe is how complicated our tax code is.

    Seems like if you need an accountant to do your taxes for you - something is wrong.
    correct, there are a lot of folks who can't follow relatively simple instructions and do basic math.
    Last edited by 92tide; January 17th, 2019 at 12:02 PM.
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