Saints and Rams: officiating

B1GTide

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Pretty sure the rule Michael Thomas cited as the reason the NFL could have the game replayed from that moment doesn't apply here. Link



We all know DPI is a judgement call, so the NFL admitting the call was wrong doesn't really change things here.
That says that the commissioner will not do this based on cub (team) complaints. It does not say that it will not do it based on a realization by the NFL itself that the error could have (and probably did) impact the outcome of the game. That is what happened here. The NFL came to this realization on their own, not because the Saints complained.
 

RTR91

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That says that the commissioner will not do this based on cub (team) complaints. It does not say that it will not do it based on a realization by the NFL itself that the error could have (and probably did) impact the outcome of the game. That is what happened here. The NFL came to this realization on their own, not because the Saints complained.
I could buy that if it was the last play of the game, but there was still 1:30 left in the game. How do you defend that if you're the NFL?
 

DzynKingRTR

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I could buy that if it was the last play of the game, but there was still 1:30 left in the game. How do you defend that if you're the NFL?
No way of ever knowing what would have happened next. The saints could have fumbled on the next play or Brees throws a pick 6. There were other missed calls in that game. After seeing the replay from a different angle, you can see the hands to the face by the saints Olineman, plus a hold on the saints. Wouldn't that be offsetting penalties or does the helmet to helmet trump all of them?
 

B1GTide

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I could buy that if it was the last play of the game, but there was still 1:30 left in the game. How do you defend that if you're the NFL?
If the flag is thrown, it would have been, essentially, the last play of the game other than the Saints FG.

The Saints just take a knee to drain the clock and the kick with almost no time left in the game. That is the point - the non-call is why the Rams had time to get down the field and tie the game. If that flag is thrown, the Saints win. This from someone who really did not care who won that game.
 

RTR91

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It was, essentially, the last play of the game. The Saints did not need to run another play from there. They just take a knee to drain the clock and the kick with almost no time left in the game. That is the point - the non-call is why the Rams had time to get down the field and tie the game. If that flag is thrown, the Saints win.
I personally agree, but I'm not sure the NFL could get away with that since there were other plays to be made. I mean this could have happened... ;)

 

B1GTide

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I personally agree, but I'm not sure the NFL could get away with that since there were other plays to be made. I mean this could have happened... ;)
LOL - Yeah. But the NFL could have done anything if they acted immediately and no one would have complained (except for the Rams). A vast majority of NFL fans wanted that game replayed from the point of the penalty the next day.
 

DzynKingRTR

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Nope, but you hate the Saints, so you clearly are not among them.
I would still say vast majority is a bit of an overreach. I would say that the people wanting the game replayed or the final 1:30 replayed would be saints fans and people that hate the Pats (because they think the saints can beat the Pats). Everyone else either doesn’t want it or doesn’t care. I believe replaying it at all sets a bad precedent. Even if it was a team I liked that got screwed I would still be against it. Now I would complain for a week, but I would get over it.
 

B1GTide

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I would still say vast majority is a bit of an overreach. I would say that the people wanting the game replayed or the final 1:30 replayed would be saints fans and people that hate the Pats (because they think the saints can beat the Pats). Everyone else either doesn’t want it or doesn’t care. I believe replaying it at all sets a bad precedent. Even if it was a team I liked that got screwed I would still be against it. Now I would complain for a week, but I would get over it.
Maybe a stretch, but not just the small group that you mention. I work as a part of a national team and have been on calls with people from all over the country and this was a huge point on every call for a few days last week with pretty much everyone feeling that the NFL should have the end of the game replayed.

For sure too small a group to be sure that it was representative of a "vast majority", but almost none of these fans were Saints fans or people who were pulling for the Saints in any way. They were just people like me - fans of NFL football.

ETA - I don't really have any skin in this one as none of my teams were impacted. I hate it for Ingram, but it gives Barron a chance to win a ring. I certainly am not upset about how it played out - just disappointed to see officials determine the outcome of a very important game.
 
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DzynKingRTR

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Maybe a stretch, but not just the small group that you mention. I work as a part of a national team and have been on calls with people from all over the country and this was a huge point on every call for a few days last week with pretty much everyone feeling that the NFL should have the end of the game replayed.

For sure too small a group to be sure that it was representative of a "vast majority", but almost none of these fans were Saints fans or people who were pulling for the Saints in any way. They were just people like me - fans of NFL football.

ETA - I don't really have any skin in this one as none of my teams were impacted. I hate it for Ingram, but it gives Barron a chance to win a ring. I certainly am not upset about how it played out - just disappointed to see officials determine the outcome of a very important game.
I still say replaying is a bad idea. It just sets a bad precedent because where do you draw the line? There have been missed calls before. What makes this game so special? It has happened before and it will happen again. Where was this outrage in 2012 (look it up)? Nobody hire lawyers in 2012. Nobody demanded the game be replayed or replayed for the point of the penalty in 2012. This is ridiculous to even suggest it.
 

B1GTide

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I still say replaying is a bad idea. It just sets a bad precedent because where do you draw the line?
I have never been a fan of "slippery slope" or "where do you draw the line" arguments. Either the Saints were wronged, or they were not. If they were, there should be a remedy to right that wrong.

As it turns out, there is. That remedy should be employed.

To decide not to right the wrong because some wrongs were not corrected in the past is stupid, IMO. We are either trying to get this right, or we just don't care. Me - I care more about getting it right than who wins the SB.

If it was Alabama that got hosed that way, no one on this board (other than Indy) would be okay with how this played out, and rightfully so.
 

DzynKingRTR

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I have never been a fan of "slippery slope" or "where do you draw the line" arguments. Either the Saints were wronged, or they were not. If they were, there should be a remedy to right that wrong.

As it turns out, there is. That remedy should be employed.

To decide not to right the wrong because some wrongs were not corrected in the past is stupid, IMO. We are either trying to get this right, or we just don't care. Me - I care more about getting it right than who wins the SB.

If it was Alabama that got hosed that way, no one on this board (other than Indy) would be okay with how this played out, and rightfully so.
The only thing that should happen is the refs should not be allowed to ref a game next year. A one-year suspension and after a year make them restart at the lowest level for refs. My problem is the whole replaying the game idea. It is just a dumb idea. I heard a good idea the other day and that was to add an 8th ref, but not on the field. This guy would be on the sideline and would watch every play and if something really, blatant is missed then throw a flag. This is doable in the NFL since no one really runs the HUNH offense exclusively. This makes sense which means the NFL won't do it and they will somehow find a way to make it worse.
 

B1GTide

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The only thing that should happen is the refs should not be allowed to ref a game next year. A one-year suspension and after a year make them restart at the lowest level for refs. My problem is the whole replaying the game idea. It is just a dumb idea. I heard a good idea the other day and that was to add an 8th ref, but not on the field. This guy would be on the sideline and would watch every play and if something really, blatant is missed then throw a flag. This is doable in the NFL since no one really runs the HUNH offense exclusively. This makes sense which means the NFL won't do it and they will somehow find a way to make it worse.
The 8th official that you discuss is the same as the replay official idea thrown out before. I am all for it. Getting these calls correct is important, and when a playoff game outcome is directly impacted, it is disgusting.
 

IndyBison

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The only thing that should happen is the refs should not be allowed to ref a game next year. A one-year suspension and after a year make them restart at the lowest level for refs. My problem is the whole replaying the game idea. It is just a dumb idea. I heard a good idea the other day and that was to add an 8th ref, but not on the field. This guy would be on the sideline and would watch every play and if something really, blatant is missed then throw a flag. This is doable in the NFL since no one really runs the HUNH offense exclusively. This makes sense which means the NFL won't do it and they will somehow find a way to make it worse.
A guy misses one call and he's suspended for an entire season? That seems pretty harsh. How bad does a miss have to be before an official is suspended for an entire season? Does the timing of the miss factor in? Let's say this happened midway through the 1st quarter and it was only 2nd down. It's just as much of an incorrect call. In this case we also would have to consider suspensions for all 3 officials involved in this play. Do they all get suspended?

I think we'll see some form of replay or an off field official given authority to help in situations like this. It kind of already does but only in rules applications situations. For example, the crew enforces a penalty incorrectly. The communicator in the replay booth may get on the radio and tell the crew, "you marked off 12 yards when it was only supposed to be 10." Then they can quickly correct that. I think the challenge will be what constitutes "egregious enough" to get involved with judgement calls like fouls. This one was pretty easy. In most cases you are just replacing one person's judgement with another. There are often disagreements between officials when reviewing judgement calls on video. You see that already today when replay gets involved in catch/no catch or fumble/down reviews.

Very rarely do we have an egregious miss like this. If this is developed I would expect it to fall into the same challenge situation they have for things currently reviewed (coach outside of 2 minutes and replay initiated inside of 2 minutes). I'm curious to see if fouls would be included in reviews during scoring plays and change of possession. For example, let's say this play happened with 3 minutes left in the half and the ball was intercepted by another Rams player. Would the foul be able to be reviewed or just whether or not it was actually a turnover? Fouls like pass interference and roughing the passer would be included to start. But then next year someone sees a hold they felt was really so it gets added. Then some screwy thing like an illegal bat doesn't get called and that gets added. These are all things the competition committee will consider when reviewing this.
 

DzynKingRTR

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The 8th official that you discuss is the same as the replay official idea thrown out before. I am all for it. Getting these calls correct is important, and when a playoff game outcome is directly impacted, it is disgusting.
The one issue I see with this is it could get out of hand with replays. I don't want every single thing looked at because this could make a game last 6 hours because they keep stopping the game to look at a hold. Then we might get into issue of what is important. If you actually go back and watch the play, you will a see a hold and a hands to the face by the saints that was also missed. Were these not as important as the PI (since this seems to be the only thing people are focusing on)?
 

RTR91

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The one issue I see with this is it could get out of hand with replays. I don't want every single thing looked at because this could make a game last 6 hours because they keep stopping the game to look at a hold. Then we might get into issue of what is important. If you actually go back and watch the play, you will a see a hold and a hands to the face by the saints that was also missed. Were these not as important as the PI (since this seems to be the only thing people are focusing on)?
No one is advocating for every single play to be reviewed. Most, if not all, are suggesting to make certain things challenge-able. If a coach is willing to challenge the call and lose a TO, let him. Guys aren't going to challenge every little call because they only have 2 (unless increased based on some penalties being added).
 

B1GTide

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No one is advocating for every single play to be reviewed. Most, if not all, are suggesting to make certain things challenge-able. If a coach is willing to challenge the call and lose a TO, let him. Guys aren't going to challenge every little call because they only have 2 (unless increased based on some penalties being added).
In playoff game, I would like to see coaches given 4 challenge flags per half. You can challenge anything - ANYTHING. Then the replay booth has a limited scope, but not limited by arbitrary rules about what is or is not reviewable, but limited by the coaches decision to challenge or not.

These challenges would be in addition to things that are reviewed by the officials in the booth already. Might add 20 minutes to a playoff game, but it would totally eliminate this kind of game changing call. Bogus block in the back flag that brings back a huge return? Challenge it. Bogus holding or non-holding call that changes field position? Challenge it.

Let's get these calls right in the playoffs.
 

DzynKingRTR

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My problem with this from the beginning is why is it such big deal now? Since people cannot google, Roddy White was mugged in 2012 NFC Championship game by a 49ers defender on 4th down. Was that one not important too? Billboards weren’t put up. Lawyers weren’t called. People didn’t demand rule changes. But now a team that could actually beat the Pats gets hosed and suddenly the NFL “has to change”. Would I be mad if my team got screwed? Absolutely, but I am an adult and it doesn’t change my life, so I get over it and accept it. People have lost their minds over this bad no call. KC got screwed on a roughing the passer call that actually was not roughing the passer and all we hear are crickets. No one is really talking about that one.
 

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