Politics: 2020 Dem POTUS candidate catch all discussion thread

CharminTide · Feb 20, 2019

Look, I like many of Bernie's ideas as well. But it's true that he's never been in the spotlight, and he's said some things that look fairly silly in retrospect. Since he's been in politics forever, there's a lot. 15 seconds on Google found the following gem:

"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger." - Bernie Sanders, 2011

That's actually still on his website (LINK). Fair or not, him claiming that the American dream is more alive in Venezuela (!) will be taken out of the larger context and made into a scandal. And frankly, I don't think he explains himself well when challenged -- the reticence about his personal taxes during the 2016 campaign was his weakest moment, IMO, and I felt like he got very defensive when pressed. It was a very bad look. I hope all of this comes out during the primary, because he will eventually have to weather the storm about his past, and I don't think that's going to be his brightest moment.

92tide · Feb 20, 2019

CharminTide said:
Look, I like many of Bernie's ideas as well. But it's true that he's never been in the spotlight, and he's said some things that look fairly silly in retrospect. Since he's been in politics forever, there's a lot. 15 seconds on Google found the following gem:

"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger." - Bernie Sanders, 2011

That's actually still on his website (LINK). Fair or not, him claiming that the American dream is more alive in Venezuela (!) will be taken out of the larger context and made into a scandal. And frankly, I don't think he explains himself well when challenged -- the reticence about his personal taxes during the 2016 campaign was his weakest moment, IMO, and I felt like he got very defensive when pressed. It was a very bad look. I hope all of this comes out during the primary, because he will eventually have to weather the storm about his past, and I don't think that's going to be his brightest moment.

also, i think his wife has some dealings with her university that would not look great when processed through the puke funnel. looks like all investigations were eventually dropped, but as we saw with hillary, reality doesn't always matter.

CrimsonNagus · Feb 20, 2019

I don't follow politics as closely as some of you but, I still get the feeling that this country is not ready to elect a woman as president. I think that if a woman is the Democratic nominee then Trump wins. Like I said, I don't follow politics like some of you so, maybe I'm completely wrong but, I still get that feeling, especially in this part of the country.

TIDE-HSV · Feb 20, 2019

twofbyc said:
It is evidence. We disagree. Ironclad? No. But evidence nonetheless.
There was NONE indicating he’d lose to Trump; only opinions from people like you with nothing to support it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As I remember, the mid-2016 polls showed Bernie leading Trump by just about exactly the same amount as Hillary led Trump, and we know how that turned out...

92tide · Feb 20, 2019

CrimsonNagus said:
I don't follow politics as closely as some of you but, I still get the feeling that this country is not ready to elect a woman as president. I think that if a woman is the Democratic nominee then Trump wins. Like I said, I don't follow politics like some of you so, maybe I'm completely wrong but, I still get that feeling, especially in this part of the country.

but for 100k or so voters in the upper-midwest and extensive interference in our electoral process by an adversarial power, we would have a female president. but yes, i think it will be an uphill battle due to the inherent biases against women in our society.

CharminTide · Feb 20, 2019

CrimsonNagus said:
I don't follow politics as closely as some of you but, I still get the feeling that this country is not ready to elect a woman as president. I think that if a woman is the Democratic nominee then Trump wins. Like I said, I don't follow politics like some of you so, maybe I'm completely wrong but, I still get that feeling, especially in this part of the country.

To be fair, the south wouldn't vote for a Democrat if Jesus himself ran as one. Ya'll barely avoided electing a child molester.

Having lived in the south, northeast, midwest, and west coast, I think the rest of the country would be fine with a woman. And the south probably would be too, if she wore red.

Bamaro · Feb 20, 2019

CharminTide said:
I like her, but I think she aims too low to get enough traction in the primaries. She opposes Medicare for all, for instance. And while she has an alternative public buy-in plan that she is able to explain if someone asks, I think that kind of milquetoast policy agenda will just get lost in the noise.

Here's an off the wall idea. Biden run and pledge to not run for re-election and partner with Klobuchar for VP during the primaries. Solves the Biden age issue and the Klobuchar too moderate for primary thing.

bama_wayne1 · Feb 20, 2019

Bamaro said:
Here's an off the wall idea. Biden run and pledge to not run for re-election and partner with Klobuchar for VP during the primaries. Solves the Biden age issue and the Klobuchar too moderate for primary thing.

sounds good

4Q Basket Case · Feb 20, 2019

I'm a lifelong Republican. Well, really more Libertarian, but they can't realistically win an election.

I believe in God, but I'm not a religious zealot. I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I don't believe in the Bible as inerrant. I think SCOTUS got the abortion thing right the first time -- 3 months at option of mother. Health of mother, rape, incest, etc up to 4 months (maybe 5). After that, having a great nephew born at 6 months, I won't support it. The recent abominations that too many Blues supported are just murder.

I believe that you love who you love, and the government should have no place in that. The church is a different matter. If your church doesn't see things that way, go to one that does. If you can't find one, start your own, or go to none. Ironically, that last one is the very foundation of Protestantism. Your option and the church's.

I believe in hard work and earning one's way. Even though Mrs. Basket Case and I never had children, I believe it is our obligation to provide for our own old age, and not become a burden to younger folks. Which means spending materially less than we earn, paying cash for all experiences, and for anything that depreciates, and not equating things we want with things we need.

And I believe in helping those who truly can't do that. So I greatly resent the people who take advantage of the governmental and charitable safety nets, and would let them rot. I also acknowledge that the line between the two is gray, and not always clear.

I believe in both the sanctity of our borders (if we have open borders, do we really have a country?), and I also believe that we are better off with new immigrants that are vetted, self-supporting, and add skills and work ethic to our population.

For five different reasons, I'm equally appalled at Roy Moore and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Donald Trump.

So there is no place for me in either party. Both have taken ridiculously extreme positions that I can't fathom. Would either the far right or the far left desert their preferred candidate to vote the other way? I don't think so. So why do the extremes carry such weight?

I have neither an answer nor a party.

Given a choice of Hillary and Trump, I voted for Nick Saban. Really.

Given a choice of Trump or Biden, I'd go with Biden. The rest of the blue field vs. Trump? Lord help us all. I'd probably go with Trump only because the policies that the others are advocating would incent dependence and destroy the wealth that underlies Social Security and Medicare, every single pension plan, virtually all 401Ks, undermine the value of our currency, and with it and the financial security of anybody who ever saved or invested a dime.

Where is today's answer to Ronald Reagan, George Bush I, JFK, and Harry Truman? I'd vote for any of the four versus the cesspool in front of us.

Whine / rant over. We return you to our previously-scheduled programming.

seebell · Feb 20, 2019

I appreciate your honest thoughts. BTW, I love the name Mrs. Basket Case!:biggrin: She know you call her that?:biggrin:

4Q Basket Case · Feb 20, 2019

Thanks, seebell.

I always respected your logic, even if I didn't always arrive at the same place you did. You're blue and I'm (generally) red, but I don't think either of us is blindly so.

Anyway, Mrs. Basket Case does know her moniker, but she doesn't know the backstory.

Back when my dad placed football bets, he would jokingly identify himself to his bookie as "102". As time went on, my mother became known as Mrs. 2.

NationalTitles18 · Feb 20, 2019

4Q Basket Case said:
I'm a lifelong Republican. Well, really more Libertarian, but they can't realistically win an election.

I believe in God, but I'm not a religious zealot. I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I don't believe in the Bible as inerrant. I think SCOTUS got the abortion thing right the first time -- 3 months at option of mother. Health of mother, rape, incest, etc up to 4 months (maybe 5). After that, having a great nephew born at 6 months, I won't support it. The recent abominations that too many Blues supported are just murder.

I believe that you love who you love, and the government should have no place in that. The church is a different matter. If your church doesn't see things that way, go to one that does. If you can't find one, start your own, or go to none. Ironically, that last one is the very foundation of Protestantism. Your option and the church's.

I believe in hard work and earning one's way. Even though Mrs. Basket Case and I never had children, I believe it is our obligation to provide for our own old age, and not become a burden to younger folks. Which means spending materially less than we earn, paying cash for all experiences, and for anything that depreciates, and not equating things we want with things we need.

And I believe in helping those who truly can't do that. So I greatly resent the people who take advantage of the governmental and charitable safety nets, and would let them rot. I also acknowledge that the line between the two is gray, and not always clear.

I believe in both the sanctity of our borders (if we have open borders, do we really have a country?), and I also believe that we are better off with new immigrants that are vetted, self-supporting, and add skills and work ethic to our population.

For five different reasons, I'm equally appalled at Roy Moore and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Donald Trump.

So there is no place for me in either party. Both have taken ridiculously extreme positions that I can't fathom. Would either the far right or the far left desert their preferred candidate to vote the other way? I don't think so. So why do the extremes carry such weight?

I have neither an answer nor a party.

Given a choice of Hillary and Trump, I voted for Nick Saban. Really.

Given a choice of Trump or Biden, I'd go with Biden. The rest of the blue field vs. Trump? Lord help us all. I'd probably go with Trump only because the policies that the others are advocating would incent dependence and destroy the wealth that underlies Social Security and Medicare, every single pension plan, virtually all 401Ks, undermine the value of our currency, and with it and the financial security of anybody who ever saved or invested a dime.

Where is today's answer to Ronald Reagan, George Bush I, JFK, and Harry Truman? I'd vote for any of the four versus the cesspool in front of us.

Whine / rant over. We return you to our previously-scheduled programming.

Thank you for sharing. I feel very much the same way except I'd vote for a can of worms over Trump and there are exceptions to the late abortions that force me to want to keep the government out of the decision.

twofbyc · Feb 22, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
As I remember, the mid-2016 polls showed Bernie leading Trump by just about exactly the same amount as Hillary led Trump, and we know how that turned out...

Negative. One poll had him up by eight points, another was around ten. Average of them all was well above the margin for error. As the primary season wore on, no poll showed Hillary up above the margin of error.
Look, no polls prove anything (exit polls used to be pretty dang close until recently )and the reasons for that seem to bother no one).
How many on here seriously thought Trump would beat Hillary?
Minus the superdelegates and the DNC and Clinton Machine’s controlling the primary to ensure her victory, Bernie could have won. The ONLY reason he didn’t is because the wealthy PTB who control the Democratic Party weren’t going to let him, regardless of what the primary voters wanted. They admitted as much in the lawsuit against them and the court agreed.
He has raised more money faster, from more people, in the 24 hrs post announcement than anyone else. He’s going to cause severe migraines for the DNC before it’s all said and done.

https://apple.news/Ao_qVB15QQ5aBFgxxHaaqHw

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92tide · Feb 22, 2019

here are all of the clinton v trump polls in the year and a half leading up to the election. a fairly decent amount of time was spent outside of the margin of error.

my biggest beef with bernie (and his supporters) is that they spent so much time after the primary was settled whining about the "rigged" election and how crooked hillary and the dnc were. very conveniently, this coincided with and was magnified by trump and russian bot propaganda talking about how crooked hillary and the dnc were.

if he somehow ends up the democratic candidate, i will happily vote for and support him. but i am not going to in the primaries because i don't think he is a very strong actual candidate and also don't think he would make a very good executive.

CharminTide · Feb 22, 2019

Relitigating the 2016 primary is a rabbit hole that leads nowhere. Even if you eliminate the superdelegates, Clinton had the votes to win. Did she benefit from “the establishment” DNC in a number of small ways? Probably. Did Bernie benefit from campaigning as “the outsider?” Probably. None of that matters now except to learn from past mistakes (I think the DNC largely has), shed old grudges (some Bernie supporters need to work on this), and do what we can to ensure a fair forum of ideas. The $6 million Bernie raked in the first 24hrs ensures he will be heard.

CharminTide · Feb 22, 2019

92tide said:
here are all of the clinton v trump polls. a fairly decent amount of time was spent outside of the margin of error.

my biggest beef with bernie (and his supporters) is that they spent so much time after the primary was settled whining about the "rigged" election and how crooked hillary and the dnc were. very conveniently, this coincided with and was magnified by trump and russian bot propaganda talking about how crooked hillary and the dnc were.

if he somehow ends up the democratic candidate, i will happily vote for and support him. but i am not going to in the primaries because i don't think he is a very strong actual candidate and also don't think he would make a very good executive.

I think it’s been shown that a lot of the scorned Bernie supporters were just operatives looking to divide the Democratic Party, and it worked. They’re already starting again in 2020.

twofbyc · Feb 22, 2019

CharminTide said:
I think it’s been shown that a lot of the scorned Bernie supporters were just operatives looking to divide the Democratic Party, and it worked. They’re already starting again in 2020.

Those who were allowed to vote. Countless voters in states with closed primaries weren’t allowed to vote (in Cali many provisional ballots they cast didn’t even get counted) due to party declaration guidelines (I think NY was six months or a year pre-election).
If by “divide” you mean “ clean out”, then I’d agree.
This is precisely why.

https://apple.news/AGi9k-vQ5Qe62JXIXwYNymw

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twofbyc · Feb 22, 2019

The biggest issue for me always has been big money in politics; as long as it remains, nothing will get done in regards to ANY change from the status quo, at least none that will be effective even in my son’s lifetime.
We have issues that need addressing now. The money in politics is simply keeping that from happening; all beneficial solutions to any of the major problems we have must go through the money wall.
It ain’t happening unless the wall is removed.
It’s a simple solution that people create a myriad of problems with the process of undertaking; people wring their hands and say we can’t do anything.
Can’t never could.

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92tide · Feb 22, 2019

twofbyc said:
Those who were allowed to vote. Countless voters in states with closed primaries weren’t allowed to vote (in Cali many provisional ballots they cast didn’t even get counted) due to party declaration guidelines (I think NY was six months or a year pre-election).
If by “divide” you mean “ clean out”, then I’d agree.
This is precisely why.

https://apple.news/AGi9k-vQ5Qe62JXIXwYNymw

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

non-registered voters missing registration deadlines <> not being allowed to vote by the dnc.

hillary got out maneuvered in the primaries wrt super delegates, etc in 2008. she learned from it and did much better in 2016. we will see if bernie did.

twofbyc · Feb 22, 2019

All indications are he did...and my reference to Cali voters was the basis (at least in part) for the lawsuit against the DNC; there’s no question somebody illegally accessed their (Cali) voter rolls and many of these people claim their party affiliation was changed.
If that’s true, who would have done such a thing?
But Bernie hasn’t gone away, despite the naysayers - he represents people who have never had anyone who stood up for what they believe in, namely corruption in politics.
And there are many.
Will he survive the primaries? Who knows? I’ll vote for absolutely whoever the Dems nominate - Trump has to go. I don’t think it will be Bernie. He’s gotten the bullseye put on him now, and the DNC PTB aren’t going to let him win - whoever it turns out to be better have his blessing, though. A core of his base is very uncompromising and the DNC nominee will need every vote he or she can get.
But I won’t support anyone in the primaries who isn’t all in on anti- corruption.

https://apple.news/Ao_qVB15QQ5aBFgxxHaaqHw

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