Politics: 2020 Dem POTUS candidate catch all discussion thread

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selmaborntidefan

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That's only if you subscribe to the gateway drug theory, which I find dubious, but other reasonable people seem to believe. While they place some magical power on the drug to cause someone to use other drugs it seems certain to me that people choose to use each drug along the way for whatever reason, but using cannabis doesn't magically cause a change in something that wasn't already there when they used alcohol, tobacco, or cannabis.

OK, a note on this since one of the things I do/have done is drug testing.

I'm not sure how I would describe it but let me lay out the observed data from the multiplied thousands upon thousands of drugs tests I've run:

a) it has been VERY rare to find a person positive for one "illicit" drug without them also being positive for THC (note: yeah, I get positive Barbiturate tests or TCA anti-depressants that may be prescribed but (for example) it is next to never that I get a positive cocaine result but negative for THC.

b) that, of course, begs the question, "But how do you know they STARTED with THC," which is a good question. In the cases where I've done review and had access to prior data, I can find many cases of someone who (say) 3 years ago had a positive THC only and now both, but I've yet to find pos COC three years ago but negative THC. It would require more microanalysis than I can possibly do to validate this better.

c) it is not uncommon to see Patient A was positive for THC only three years ago and now is on four different things.

d) the number of opioid positive tests has gone up God knows how many times (10? 15?) in the last 12 years when I began sort of noticing trends. Meth use was rising for a long time but at least appears to have leveled off.


Again - don't say "you're saying X." I don't think we can take something like this down to a bumper sticker slogan that we can throw out there to answer all criticism. All I'm basically saying is that is has been my observation reviewing (and performing) drug testing in a suburb of one of the largest cities in the USA that it appears more likely than not that if a person is positive for "another" drug (most specifically COC and OPI) in the panel, they are positive for THC as well - and for those repeat patients, you can find (more often than not - again) they used THC and added the others.


Yes, I know it's not a "controlled" study" yadda yadda but just take that for what it's worth.

Every other chemist/med tech I've spoken with the last 15 years has observed the exact same thing (when we discuss it - which is rare).
 

selmaborntidefan

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Who cares? That’s a 40 second video I can barely understand. If he’s changed his mind about a few things since his twenties then he’s normal.
Yeah, I know.

Remember when 65-year old Hillary Clinton opposed gay marriage? I mean, at least Mayor Pete's excuse (assuming we need one, which we don't) is, "I was in my 20s." But I wasn't supposed to hold that against her, right? (Assuming I would have voted for her ever).

Anyone want to bet that if they try this one that he can come right back with a position they've changed in the last 15 years?

Al Gore and Dick Gephardt both were staunchly pro-life on abortion until ten seconds after they decided to run for President as Democrats and then they had their own "Paul on the road to Damascus" conversions, Gore in his 30s and Gephardt in his 40s (Gore even voting to recognize a human life as existing from the moment of conception in 1984).

Ronald Reagan was a hardcore liberal Democrat in his youth.
Hillary was a "Goldwater Girl" though yeah, she was in high school.


In the 1988 NH primary debate (Democrats), Paul Simon was just incessantly going after Gephardt. Dukakis had already nailed Gephardt as a "flip-flopper," and Simon was sort of trying the same thing. Gephardt then reminded Simon of his own youth as a newspaper published by saying, "You endorsed Tom Dewey and now you run on Harry Truman."


Besides - saying "I disagree with my opponents but I don't think they're evil" is a big step that someone needs to take. (Biden has done this to a point).
 

NationalTitles18

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OK, a note on this since one of the things I do/have done is drug testing.

I'm not sure how I would describe it but let me lay out the observed data from the multiplied thousands upon thousands of drugs tests I've run:

a) it has been VERY rare to find a person positive for one "illicit" drug without them also being positive for THC (note: yeah, I get positive Barbiturate tests or TCA anti-depressants that may be prescribed but (for example) it is next to never that I get a positive cocaine result but negative for THC.

b) that, of course, begs the question, "But how do you know they STARTED with THC," which is a good question. In the cases where I've done review and had access to prior data, I can find many cases of someone who (say) 3 years ago had a positive THC only and now both, but I've yet to find pos COC three years ago but negative THC. It would require more microanalysis than I can possibly do to validate this better.

c) it is not uncommon to see Patient A was positive for THC only three years ago and now is on four different things.

d) the number of opioid positive tests has gone up God knows how many times (10? 15?) in the last 12 years when I began sort of noticing trends. Meth use was rising for a long time but at least appears to have leveled off.


Again - don't say "you're saying X." I don't think we can take something like this down to a bumper sticker slogan that we can throw out there to answer all criticism. All I'm basically saying is that is has been my observation reviewing (and performing) drug testing in a suburb of one of the largest cities in the USA that it appears more likely than not that if a person is positive for "another" drug (most specifically COC and OPI) in the panel, they are positive for THC as well - and for those repeat patients, you can find (more often than not - again) they used THC and added the others.


I've seen my share of drug screens over the years and agree with your description generally.

Yes, I know it's not a "controlled" study" yadda yadda but just take that for what it's worth.

Every other chemist/med tech I've spoken with the last 15 years has observed the exact same thing (when we discuss it - which is rare).

I think we would agree that the social acceptance of drugs goes something like:

1. Rx'd drugs like opioids and benzos

2. alcohol (and maybe switch up the top two or three here)

3. weed

4. probably something else

5. tobacco

6. other stuff

Point being that the trend is from greater socially acceptable drugs trending toward less socially acceptable drugs.

And the top first psychoactive drug by far is alcohol. Most do go through tobacco, alcohol, and cannabis before ever getting to the harder drugs. And although Rx drugs get a bad rap you have to get to 5th or 6th choice drugs before the majority have used Rx opioids, benzos, or stimulants - all of which have become demonized of late.

My point was centered on cannabis being singled out as a gateway drug when alcohol is really the first drug most use. In reality, cannabis is just the first semi-illicit drug most people use. In fact, it's completely legal here on the state level and the social acceptability of it continues to grow. In places where medical and/or recreational is allowed its use is not automatically seen as "abuse" simply based on use. Many real honest to God Almighty healthcare professionals recommend people use it medically, both in low and high THC varieties.

To that: A funny dispensary story. I went to a dispensary in Reno and they were having a little trouble with our registration process so I was called back up to the window. As I stood there waiting an elderly couple walked in - they looked to be in their seventies. The very prim and proper lady came up to the window and said her doctor had recommended she come off her opioid (she may have mentioned tramadol or something else - can't remember) and begin using cannabis (she may have said CBD, just to be as specific and fair as I can be - but even low THC products contain THC, just in very low amounts that are often enough to trigger a positive UDS). That country song "Everybody's gone country (but with cannabis substituted)" popped into my head.

Back to alcohol, it's legal in all 50 states despite being psychoactive and by the time even a chronic abuser gets to the facility it's often not detectable, even if we did check (which we often did in the ER for various reasons).

I've found that most, if not very close to all, who go on to use the harder drugs have a history of mental illness and/or abuse. We don't spend nearly the public money on that as we do drug enforcement. Misplaced priorities in my book.

I never argued that most don't try cannabis before the harder drugs, but I do question the gateway drug theory as the reason for that (and besides, where does alcohol fall in that argument?). There are more variables in play: h/o abuse or mental illness, social acceptability, and others. The gateway drug theory is more a model based on criminality, the assumptions being that using one illicit substance makes one more likely to use another (but what about states where it's legal?) and that users go looking for a more and more intense effect. I look at it more from a medical/health perspective, which is not terribly concerned with the legal arguments aside from the well-being of the whole person.

And what of the people who use alcohol or cannabis or tobacco and never go on to use harder drugs?

From the National Institutes of Health National Institute on Drug Abuse:

"These findings are consistent with the idea of marijuana as a "gateway drug." However, the majority of people who use marijuana do not go on to use other, "harder" substances. Also, cross-sensitization is not unique to marijuana. Alcohol and nicotine also prime the brain for a heightened response to other drugs52 and are, like marijuana, also typically used before a person progresses to other, more harmful substances.
It is important to note that other factors besides biological mechanisms, such as a person’s social environment, are also critical in a person’s risk for drug use. An alternative to the gateway-drug hypothesis is that people who are more vulnerable to drug-taking are simply more likely to start with readily available substances such as marijuana, tobacco, or alcohol, and their subsequent social interactions with others who use drugs increases their chances of trying other drugs. Further research is needed to explore this question."

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-gateway-drug

If these drugs are gateways then why don't the majority go on to harder substances?

It's my opinion that the gateway theory and emphasis on it is a simplistic explanation that stands in the way too often of getting to the real root causes and therefore the solutions for better health, physical and mental. In any case, it is a gateway (just using the terminology and not giving a stamp of approval) in a minority of people who use cannabis.

To be clear, I understand you are not making the argument that it is a gateway. You are simply noting your observations. My experience is similar, though I often do not have access to old data. You'd have to look hard to find someone who does not see the same progression in the majority of cases (in which case I'd have questions).

Out of curiosity, are you able to mentally retrieve Mrs. Smith's INRs for the last 5 years? :) Half joking, but still curious.

ETA: The gateway drug theory does little to nothing to help guide treatment for those who use drugs. It is therefore of little to no use to me in practice aside from counseling to avoid harder drugs that may be more problematic from both health and legal perspectives.
 
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Crimson1967

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I am really hoping for a President Pete. It will freak out the far right because he is gay and will freak out the far left because he (despite being gay) isn't woke enough.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I am really hoping for a President Pete. It will freak out the far right because he is gay and will freak out the far left because he (despite being gay) isn't woke enough.
Gee, all we have to do is change a few words and we have the current nutbag.

I'm not sure that spite is anything more than a more accurate word for populism.

(Btw - in the larger picture you and I are in general agreement; I just don't think "I want candidate X because he'll tick all the partisans off" is much different in base thought than what led us to the current leader).


However, I would trust Mayor Pete with my national security more than General Discomfort.



ETA: I even joked more than once that Trump would be good for some laughs, but I never thought this was what we needed.
 

Crimson1967

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I really haven’t looked too deep into his platform, but he comes across to me as a bit of a left-leaning moderate, which is fine with me. I was just joking with my other comment but it will be fun to see the meltdown on both sides.

But my vote is pretty much irrelevant based on where I live.

I also felt a President Trump would be fun to watch in a TV series, but not in real life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

rgw

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The question with Pete is his polling numbers with black voters is consistently awful. I don't think a DNP candidate in 2019 can win without getting a good turnout from a demographic that regularly goes their way 8 or 9 to 1.
 

CharminTide

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The question with Pete is his polling numbers with black voters is consistently awful. I don't think a DNP candidate in 2019 can win without getting a good turnout from a demographic that regularly goes their way 8 or 9 to 1.
Biden is capturing about 50% of the black vote, so literally everyone needs to do a ton of work there. If Biden comes 3rd/4th in Iowa and NH, I would expect to see blacks start to abandon ship.

Also, consider this:

The Onion: Buttigieg Campaign Appeals To Moderate Republicans By Touting Low Approval Among Black Voters
 
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rgw

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I would rather see a party grow by engaging dormant left sensibilities that exist when you don’t say the conditioned scare words due to decades of propaganda. But this is hell world so I reckon the best we can hope for is picking off folks who will go fascist the instant things get uncomfortable for them.
 
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