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  1. #27
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The difference between Liberals and the left

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    That is a good read, if only because of how scary the depths of depravity of leftism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Robinson
    Patriotism has always seemed to me to be a profoundly irrational notion; I believe one should love and serve humanity, not one’s particular arbitrary geopolitical segment of humanity. Snyder’s problem with Trump is that Trump is not enough of a patriot. But I see all rhetoric of patriotism as profoundly conservative and antithetical to everything I believe. In fact, I find Snyder’s whole case to be based on deeply conservative principles. ... The liberal says, “I’m standing up for what the Founding Fathers actually believed” while the leftist says, “The Founding Fathers endorsed the ownership of human beings. Some owned human beings themselves, and beat or raped these human beings. I will not measure the worth of something by what the Founding Fathers thought about it.” Certainly, the word “liberal” is an unfortunately overbroad and imprecise term, but it’s fair to say that some strains of liberalism actually have more values in common with conservatism than with leftism, in that they affirm key conservative premises that leftists abhor. (e.g. all that “America is the greatest country in the history of the world” poppycock.)
    Well, Robinson must have been sleeping in his U.S. history class because many (most?) of the Founders were deeply concerned about slavery and hoped it would go away peacefully, but were willing to tolerate it as a necessary condition of ratifying a constitution and forming a Union of states under it. Robinson's ignorance is debilitating and his heart seems so filled with hate, he has no room for love.

  2. #28
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The difference between Liberals and the left

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    you didn't have to... The term has had too many interpretations over the last hundreds of years to definitively define "what is liberal?". Yes there are common beats, but there are very big differences depending on "when" you are talking about.
    That is why I provided a definition from seemingly objective sources. My point was that there is very definite daylight between the provided definition of a "liberal" and a "leftist."

    I agree that the term "liberal" has evolved over time.
    The late Ralph Raico, the libertarian historian, defined liberalism as “the belief that society runs itself.

    John Stuart Mill, the "saint of liberalism" modified the definition of the term in some odd ways, due at least in part to his personal foibles (his relationship with a married woman). He hated social condemnation of his execrable personal conduct, so he aimed his ire at social constructs like "don't schtup your neighbor's wife." Liberalism, correspondingly, took a turn for the weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Senator Joseph S. Clark, Jr.,
    A liberal is here defined as one who believes in utilizing the full force of government for the advancement of social, political, and economic justice at the municipal, state, national, and international levels. . . . A liberal believes government is a proper tool to use in the development of a society which attempts to carry Christian principles of conduct into practical effect. (Atlantic, July 1953, p. 27)
    So, the fact remains that I have presented two fairly modern (and, I would add, fairly objective) definitions of the two terms, with a view to exposing to discussion, the two terms.
    Last edited by Tidewater; February 8th, 2019 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #29
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    Re: The difference between Liberals and the left

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    That is why I provided a definition from seemingly objective sources. My point was that there is very definite daylight between the provided definition of a "liberal" and a "leftist."

    I agree that the term "liberal" has evolved over time.
    The late Ralph Raico, the libertarian historian, defined liberalism as “the belief that society runs itself.

    John Stuart Mill, the "saint of liberalism" modified the definition of the term in some odd ways, due at least in part to his personal foibles (his relationship with a married woman). He hated social condemnation of his execrable personal conduct, so he aimed his ire at social constructs like "don't schtup your neighbor's wife." Liberalism, correspondingly, took a turn for the weird.



    So, the fact remains that I have presented two fairly modern (and, I would add, fairly objective) definitions of the two terms, with a view to exposing to discussion, the two terms.
    Once neo liberalism became a political identity I donít think itís as easy to identify who is a liberal. I think many classical liberalism distinctions just donít work because foreign affairs have became a big issue in politics. So I donít think itís as clear cut as you have tried to break it down because politics is far more complex than just national issues. Sure you can say folks from TYT are drunk on the left sauce, but can you really call folks that oppose neo liberalism on the left (Sanders and Warren) radical leftists?

    I just think itís not as simple and clear cut.

  4. #30
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The difference between Liberals and the left

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Once neo liberalism became a political identity I don’t think it’s as easy to identify who is a liberal. I think many classical liberalism distinctions just don’t work because foreign affairs have became a big issue in politics. So I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you have tried to break it down because politics is far more complex than just national issues. Sure you can say folks from TYT are drunk on the left sauce, but can you really call folks that oppose neo liberalism on the left (Sanders and Warren) radical leftists?

    I just think it’s not as simple and clear cut.
    And as I said far above, the label shift has been even sharper when you look at "conservative," which has come to mean supporting certain religious positions and no longer has to do with sane government...
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  5. #31
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    Re: The difference between Liberals and the left

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    And as I said far above, the label shift has been even sharper when you look at "conservative," which has come to mean supporting certain religious positions and no longer has to do with sane government...
    Conservatism is no longer conservatism. The past 20 years has turned it into white cristianiry-ism. I know that's not a word but that's what it is. I long for us to return to conservatism meaning not spending 1 trillion more than you bring in in a year and holding people personally responsible for their own actions.
    ETA. I also long for the days when we focused on having a strong military rather than a strong military international presence. You can defend your country without deploying troops everywhere in the world.
    Last edited by uafanataum; February 8th, 2019 at 10:52 PM.

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