...Alabama...sigh...you've done it again

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
I don't think you can have a serious conversation about decreasing abortions without also discussing how to provide broader access to and education on contraceptives. ANY conversation on abortion that ignores this is useless.

I think it will be hard for history to look at a Republican party, that tried to stop abortions while also decreasing access to contraceptives and quality healthcare for women, as being on the right side of history on the abortion issue.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,463
13,297
287
Hooterville, Vir.
bless your heart. i have noted your continued duplicity on matters related to abortion and will keep that in mind going forward.
I do not see the duplicity.
The article "Abortion is Morally Good," was written by a pro-abortion woman. The words are hers, not mine.
The second article "Abortion as a Positive Good," was written by a (presumably) anti-abortion man who compared radical pro-abortion rhetoric to radical pro-slavery rhetoric (or maybe a moderate who is disturbed by the similarity between those rhetorics).
The third article was from the famously pro-GOP newspaper the Washington Post.
 
Last edited:

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
58,265
45,054
287
54
East Point, Ga, USA
I do not see the duplicity.
The article "Abortion is Morally Good," was written by a pro-abortion woman. The words are hers, not mine.
The second article "Abortion as a Positive Good," was written by a (presumably) anti-abortion man who compared radical pro-abortion rhetoric to radical pro-slavery rhetoric (or maybe a moderate who is disturbed by the similarity between those rhetorics).
The third article was from the famously pro-GOP newspaper the Washington Post.
that does not surprise me in the least.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
58,265
45,054
287
54
East Point, Ga, USA
I don't think you can have a serious conversation about decreasing abortions without also discussing how to provide broader access to and education on contraceptives. ANY conversation on abortion that ignores this is useless.

I think it will be hard for history to look at a Republican party, that tried to stop abortions while also decreasing access to contraceptives and quality healthcare for women, as being on the right side of history on the abortion issue.
just my thoughts, the focus should not be on the incidences of abortion at all. the focus should be on health. that implies that it is an inherently bad thing to always be avoided. it is a medical procedure that is often necessary and traumatic for those having it.
 

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
just my thoughts, the focus should not be on the incidences of abortion at all. the focus should be on health. that implies that it is an inherently bad thing to always be avoided. it is a medical procedure that is often necessary and traumatic for those having it.
I don't disagree but sometimes I give up on the moral arguments and go to the more rational ones. People who support abortion and people who are anti abortion should be able to find common ground despite vast differences in how they actually see abortion.

I think its easier to convince someone who is anti abortion that increased in access to quality contraceptive care is something they should support than trying to convince them that abortion isn't inherently bad. The latter argument seems unwinnable to me because changing someones beliefs is basically impossible.
 

Chukker Veteran

Hall of Fame
Feb 6, 2001
10,608
5,098
287
The group of people who think abortion is inherently bad overlaps with another group that think any sex without the blessing of a heterosexual wedding is bad. The pro and anti abortion crowds could reach an agreement easier if there wasn't a subset of people who think sex before marriage is evil and must not be encouraged under any circumstances.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
58,265
45,054
287
54
East Point, Ga, USA
I don't disagree but sometimes I give up on the moral arguments and go to the more rational ones. People who support abortion and people who are anti abortion should be able to find common ground despite vast differences in how they actually see abortion.

I think its easier to convince someone who is anti abortion that increased in access to quality contraceptive care is something they should support than trying to convince them that abortion isn't inherently bad. The latter argument seems unwinnable to me because changing someones beliefs is basically impossible.
unfortunately, wrt abortion, it has little to do with morality or rationality. it is about holding political power.
 
Last edited:

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
unfortunately, wrt abortion, it has little to do with morality or rationality. it is about holding political power.

For some it is for sure. Especially those at the top. But plenty of average day voters have very strong moral reasons for being against abortions and its not going to be easy or even possible to change their minds. I still think a more effective strategy would be to appeal to a more rational side of voters especially on something that it so emotional and personal for some.

The group of people who think abortion is inherently bad overlaps with another group that think any sex without the blessing of a heterosexual wedding is bad. The pro and anti abortion crowds could reach an agreement easier if there wasn't a subset of people who think sex before marriage is evil and must not be encouraged under any circumstances.
Yea thats a big problem. But I think liberals feed into that some by only/largely using the argument that abortion as a moral right. While I personally agree with that stance many do not.

I think the way to get those 2 groups to separate some would be to approach the conversation from a different direction more often than abortion supporters do now.

Fortunately the millennial generation is less religious so some of these arguments should die off some.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,463
13,297
287
Hooterville, Vir.
I don't think you can have a serious conversation about decreasing abortions without also discussing how to provide broader access to and education on contraceptives. ANY conversation on abortion that ignores this is useless.

I think it will be hard for history to look at a Republican party, that tried to stop abortions while also decreasing access to contraceptives
Do you mean access to contraceptives or access to contraceptives at government expense? I suppose it is possible a Republican has proposed outlawing contraceptives, but I have not seen it. Maybe you could point it out to me. My mind is open.
and quality healthcare for women, as being on the right side of history on the abortion issue.
The term "quality healthcare for women" seems like a rhetorical sleight of hand. Are there "womens' healthcare" facilities that offer pap smears or mammograms (or other healthcare procedures particular to women but not abortion) that have been outlawed or closed down? It seems that if Republicans are against womens' healthcare per se, they would have closed a facility that offered non-abortion womens' healthcare procedures. Otherwise, it would seem that abortion rights advocates are hiding behind "womens' healthcare" as a rhetorical device.
 

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
Do you mean access to contraceptives or access to contraceptives at government expense? I suppose it is possible a Republican has proposed outlawing contraceptives, but I have not seen it. Maybe you could point it out to me. My mind is open.
Idk what you're talking about. Where did I say anything that would imply this? You're making a HUGE leap from what I said to apparently me claiming that Republicans tried to outlaw contraceptives? But I honestly wouldn't even be remotely surprised if some have tried in specific states with regards to specific types or the plan B pill for example.

Also, I said broader access in the context of a government policy discussion so, yes there is likely some expense. Would it cost more long term? No idea, but I'm sure the information is out there for specific policies that have been presented. Feel free to look it up.



The term "quality healthcare for women" seems like a rhetorical sleight of hand. Are there "womens' healthcare" facilities that offer pap smears or mammograms (or other healthcare procedures particular to women but not abortion) that have been outlawed or closed down? It seems that if Republicans are against womens' healthcare per se, they would have closed a facility that offered non-abortion womens' healthcare procedures. Otherwise, it would seem that abortion rights advocates are hiding behind "womens' healthcare" as a rhetorical device.
Again, where did I say anything about anything being outlawed? And I'm not getting into an abortion debate or the semantic involved.


My whole point is that if you want to decrease abortions you should be willing to have a conversation about increasing access to and education around contraception and yes women's healthcare.

If your only response to these topics is "what you really mean is abortion" and "will it cost the government money" then I refuse to take your concern over abortion seriously because according to your values you are now putting a semantic debate and government funds over what you apparently see as the murder of small children. (btw I mean a more general you)
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,463
13,297
287
Hooterville, Vir.
yes it is. and then pushing the "abortion is just like slavery" nonsense.
Did I not accurately record Northam's words?

“If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”
He said, "infant" not "product of conception," not "fetus." He said, "delivered" not "aborted in the womb." He is talking about a child outside the womb.
And in the run up to that quote, he said, 3rd trimester abortions happen when a fetus is severely deformed or nonviable, distinguishing between the two. A baby born with no legs is severely deformed, but is probably viable. Nonviable infants probably do not need to be resuscitated. They are nonviable. That is tragic and sad, but not unheard of. And Northam did not say how long the period would be in which the doctor and parents would be allowed to discuss whether to keep their child alive or not. An hour? A week? Six months? My father, in a letter to the editor of the local paper echoed Prof. Pete Singer's opinion that infanticide should be allowed up to six months. "They are not self-aware" my father wrote. He was just following the logic.
And he referenced Delegate Tran's bill. If 3rd trimester abortion would only be allowed in cases in which the fetus is severely deformed or nonviable, why did her bill not restrict itself to those cases?

Tran's bill would not have been restricted to severely or nonviable deformed babies.

Del. Kathy Tran is wrong saying bill wouldn't change late-term abortion laws

Virginia allows third-trimester abortions in hospitals if three physicians certify that a continued pregnancy would "likely" kill the woman or "substantially and irremediably" impair her mental or physical health. Tran’s bill would have lowered the authorization from three physicians to one. That doctor would only have to certify that the pregnancy would damage a woman’s health. The "substantial and irremediable" threshold would have been repealed.... Tran’s bill would have lowered the requirements to one physician certifying that the pregnancy would damage the woman’s mental or physical health - the "substantial and irremediable" test would have been repealed.
I did not say that "abortion is just like slavery" (I think its worse). I wondered whether in the future, today's abortion advocates would be morally condemned in a way similar to the way we today morally condemn advocates of slavery 150 years ago.
 
Last edited:

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,463
13,297
287
Hooterville, Vir.
I don't think you can have a serious conversation about decreasing abortions without also discussing how to provide broader access to and education on contraceptives.
Do you mean access to contraceptives or access to contraceptives at government expense?
I think it will be hard for history to look at a Republican party, that tried to stop abortions while also decreasing access to contraceptives and quality healthcare for women, as being on the right side of history on the abortion issue.
If an organization like Planned Parenthood says, "We are only about women's health." Anti-abortion people might say, "Okay, then offer every form of women's health care except abortion, and then see what happens to opposition to funding Planned Parentood." I would argue that such opposition to drop to near zero. If that is true, what is opposition to Planned Parenthood about, women's health care or abortion?
 

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
Do you mean access to contraceptives or access to contraceptives at government expense?

If an organization like Planned Parenthood says, "We are only about women's health." Anti-abortion people might say, "Okay, then offer every form of women's health care except abortion, and then see what happens to opposition to funding Planned Parentood." I would argue that such opposition to drop to near zero. If that is true, what is opposition to Planned Parenthood about, women's health care or abortion?
I answered that question already. And again, you're trying to have different argument than the one I'm having. But thanks

Edit: I get where you're going but its a debate I've had a billion times and have no interest in redoing.
 
Last edited:

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,463
13,297
287
Hooterville, Vir.
I answered that question already. And again, you're trying to have different argument than the one I'm having. But thanks

Edit: I get where you're going but its a debate I've had a billion times and have no interest in redoing.
Fair enough. Saying "Republicans are opposed to women's health," is a thesis that should be verifiable or deniable. If there was some organization that offered women's health without offering abortion services, and Republicans still opposed funding that organization, then the premise "Republicans are opposed to women's health" would hold true. (There may not be such an organization; I simply do not know). In the absence of such a case, I would dismiss the rhetorical sleight of hand as partisan maneuvering.

Republicans do it too. State they want to reduce the number of abortions, and put forth a bill which ostensibly does that, and then slip in a provision to deny abortions to victims of rape and incest, knowing that Democrats/moderates cannot support the bill. A reasonable person would ask whether Republicans really want to reduce the number of abortions, or are looking for a cudgel to beat their opponents over the head with in the next election (e.g. "My opponent voted against a bill that would have limited the number of abortions!")

I think partisan politics is a form of mental illness.
 

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,845
6,721
187
Fair enough. Saying "Republicans are opposed to women's health," is a thesis that should be verifiable or deniable. If there was some organization that offered women's health without offering abortion services, and Republicans still opposed funding that organization, then the premise "Republicans are opposed to women's health" would hold true. (There may not be such an organization; I simply do not know). In the absence of such a case, I would dismiss the rhetorical sleight of hand as partisan maneuvering.

Republicans do it too. State they want to reduce the number of abortions, and put forth a bill which ostensibly does that, and then slip in a provision to deny abortions to victims of rape and incest, knowing that Democrats/moderates cannot support the bill. A reasonable person would ask whether Republicans really want to reduce the number of abortions, or are looking for a cudgel to beat their opponents over the head with in the next election (e.g. "My opponent voted against a bill that would have limited the number of abortions!")

I think partisan politics is a form of mental illness.
I don't think Republicans specifically are opposed to women's health. I'd argue they are apathetic towards women's health as are most of the men in this country and most of the politicians.
 
Last edited:

seebell

Hall of Fame
Mar 12, 2012
11,919
5,105
187
Gurley, Al
https://www.al.com/news/2019/08/tru...N0XVbJkQ5bAtsEt1omyen5FlyRvjOa-ieeFyG9S3GCjME

Gee, Roy Moore might be better?

Tuberville repeated the criticism of veterans care Saturday, but praised North Alabama Republican Congressman Mo Brooks at the head table as a politician who will also take a stand. Tuberville said that Trump has “saved this country, folks, he’s saved it” from socialism, which Tuberville said Democrats want to bring to America.
Tuberville called for returning God to public schools and criticized states that permit some religion, but not Christianity. “There are 10 states in this country that a certain faith can pray five times a day in public schools, but our kids can’t say the Lord’s Prayer. A double standard. We’re losing because we’ve got our eyes closed,” Tuberville said.

Why don't Tommy go back to Mississippi where he came from?
:confused:
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,609
39,826
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
https://www.al.com/news/2019/08/tru...N0XVbJkQ5bAtsEt1omyen5FlyRvjOa-ieeFyG9S3GCjME

Gee, Roy Moore might be better?

Tuberville repeated the criticism of veterans care Saturday, but praised North Alabama Republican Congressman Mo Brooks at the head table as a politician who will also take a stand. Tuberville said that Trump has “saved this country, folks, he’s saved it” from socialism, which Tuberville said Democrats want to bring to America.
Tuberville called for returning God to public schools and criticized states that permit some religion, but not Christianity. “There are 10 states in this country that a certain faith can pray five times a day in public schools, but our kids can’t say the Lord’s Prayer. A double standard. We’re losing because we’ve got our eyes closed,” Tuberville said.

Why don't Tommy go back to Mississippi where he came from?
:confused:
Because he's from Arkansas?
 

uafanataum

All-American
Oct 18, 2014
2,917
1,366
182
Because he's from Arkansas?
That explains alot. Said in jest but I believe there is a thread on Arkansas fans from a couple of years ago. It was hilarious and I am not convinced it was far off from reality based upon my limited dealings with Arkansas natives.
 

New Posts

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.