News Article: US Supreme Court unanimously limits civil asset forfeiture

crimsonaudio · Feb 20, 2019

Man, sometimes I love the SCOTUS. This is one of those times.

Jon · Feb 20, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
Man, sometimes I love the SCOTUS. This is one of those times.

it's a really good ruling and a big step forward to be celebrated no doubt. They did kick something back to the States

The court has already ruled that when the federal government seizes money or property, the fine must not be “grossly disproportional to the gravity of [the] offense.” Presumably, this same standard now applies to the states. But when is a forfeiture grossly disproportionate? Does Indiana’s seizure of Timbs’ Land Rover meet this standard? Ginsburg didn’t say, instead directing the Indiana Supreme Court to evaluate the question. Prepare for a flood of litigation urging federal courts to determine when civil asset forfeiture crosses this constitutional line.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...ules-against-civil-forfeitures-rbg-timbs.html

BamaJama17 · Feb 21, 2019

So I can now carry 100k in cash with me now when I’m out in public?? **blue font**

Its On A Slab · Feb 21, 2019

BamaJama17 said:
So I can now carry 100k in cash with me now when I’m out in public?? **blue font**

True story: Gf is from Buenos Aires. She's been in the country for over two decades, but still owned a small apt in BsAs.

She finally sold it a couple years ago. Her Mom went to the closing, and said the buyer showed up with $120,000 in US currency, stashed in the pockets of his trench coat. And he traveled to the closing on the city's subway system. I spent a lot of time on that subway during my visit a year ago, and no way would I carry any significant amount of cash.

So, her 80 year old Mom had to leave the attorney's office, walk down the street to the bank, and deposit the cash.

TIDE-HSV · Feb 21, 2019

Its On A Slab said:
True story: Gf is from Buenos Aires. She's been in the country for over two decades, but still owned a small apt in BsAs.

She finally sold it a couple years ago. Her Mom went to the closing, and said the buyer showed up with $120,000 in US currency, stashed in the pockets of his trench coat. And he traveled to the closing on the city's subway system. I spent a lot of time on that subway during my visit a year ago, and no way would I carry any significant amount of cash.

So, her 80 year old Mom had to leave the attorney's office, walk down the street to the bank, and deposit the cash.

I'd bet that cash would test positive for cocaine...

Jon · Feb 21, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
I'd bet that cash would test positive for cocaine...

you'd win that bet

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/14/cocaine.traces.money/

Research presented this weekend reinforced previous findings that 90 percent of paper money circulating in U.S. cities contains traces of cocaine."When I was a young kid, my mom told me the dirtiest thing in the world is money," said the researcher, Yuegang Zuo, professor of chemistry and biochemistry at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. "Mom is always right."
Scientists say the amount of cocaine found on bills is not enough to cause health risks.

rolltide_21 · Feb 21, 2019

92tide said:
good. i was wondering if this nonsense would ever stop.

The one time a "both sides" comment is a good thing

A unanimous decision on a subject that matters is a "unicorn" if Ive ever seen one.

crimsonaudio · Feb 21, 2019

It'll take time for this to be stopped across the board - this ruling won't do that - but it looks like it sets the stage for an end to these illegal thefts.

A few years ago I drove down to southern MS in order to (potentially) purchase a vehicle. I was paying cash, so I had ~$20k in $100 bills on me, which I hid behind some panels in my vehicles in case I was pulled over for something. I've done nothing wrong, the money was perfectly legal, but in the news (around that time) there had been quite a few people who, just like myself, were minding their own business, pulled over for speeding or similar, and had their money confiscated due to the officer's 'suspicion'.

Nothing screams "a violation of our inherent freedoms" like when a law-abiding citizen feels the need to hide cash from the cops in case they get pulled over...

UAH · Feb 21, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
I'd bet that cash would test positive for cocaine...

It is a lot of money but the post led me to think of Florianopolis, Brazil where I spent a lot of time. If I needed to get the $10,000 limit to travel back to the US for business purposes it was as simple of the locals knowing where to go downtown to convert Reals to US Dollars. To convert that amount say R25,000 to $10,000 US it would require a day and he would have the Dollars required. In Brazil the taxes involved in moving money out of the country are so prohibitive that the black market thrives for most business transactions. Who knows where all of the Dollars come from but I was never very comfortable travelling with any significant sums of money. It seems a good way to get whacked!

TIDE-HSV · Feb 21, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
It'll take time for this to be stopped across the board - this ruling won't do that - but it looks like it sets the stage for and end to these illegal thefts.

A few years ago I drove down to southern MS in order to (potentially) purchase a vehicle. I was paying cash, so I had ~$20k in $100 bills on me, which I hid behind some panels in my vehicles in case I was pulled over for something. I've done nothing wrong, the money was perfectly legal, but in the new (around that time) there had been quite a few people who, just like myself, we minding their own business, pulled over for speeding or similar, and had their money confiscated due to the officer's 'suspicion'.

Nothing screams "a violation of our inherent freedoms" like when a law-abiding citizen feels the need to hide cash from the cops in case they get pulled over...

Not a joke. Just too true. LA is probably the worst state in the union for it. Not America, but once, crossing over from Austria to Italy, I found out that my MIL had $25K, in today's dollars, around her waist in a money belt. Italy was having a currency crisis and, if we hadn't insisted on having it counted and getting a receipt at the border, all we could have taken out was $50. BTW, I agree. There will be litigation across the country for years about how much is "excessive"...

Bodhisattva · Feb 21, 2019

Its On A Slab said:
True story: Gf is from Buenos Aires. She's been in the country for over two decades, but still owned a small apt in BsAs.

She finally sold it a couple years ago. Her Mom went to the closing, and said the buyer showed up with $120,000 in US currency, stashed in the pockets of his trench coat. And he traveled to the closing on the city's subway system. I spent a lot of time on that subway during my visit a year ago, and no way would I carry any significant amount of cash.

So, her 80 year old Mom had to leave the attorney's office, walk down the street to the bank, and deposit the cash.

Similar situation upcoming with my mother-in-law in Vietnam. If you want to buy/sell something, even a house, the transaction is done in cash. The plan is to bring her over and stay with us (once we buy/build our new home). To get her to divest in Vietnam has me greatly concerned. One, once she sells her home and business interests, she'll have many hundreds of thousands of dollars in (US equivalent) cash on hand. I hope she can quietly get that to the bank. Two, getting that money out of the country without the VN government stealing it will also be a challenge. Sigh.

Tidewater · Feb 22, 2019

Glad the court put an end to this practice (although I've never been a supporter of the doctrine of incorporation because I have seen no evidence indicating the ratifiers intended it), but I am a bit surprised they did not reject the idea of charging inanimate objects with crimes and then asserting that, as inanimate objects, they were entitled to no rights whatsoever. That doctrine smacks of a "clever" lawyer trying to dream up a legal excuse for doing what the cops wanted to do all along (impound property for the use of the police department).

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2019

Bodhisattva said:
Similar situation upcoming with my mother-in-law in Vietnam. If you want to buy/sell something, even a house, the transaction is done in cash. The plan is to bring her over and stay with us (once we buy/build our new home). To get her to divest in Vietnam has me greatly concerned. One, once she sells her home and business interests, she'll have many hundreds of thousands of dollars in (US equivalent) cash on hand. I hope she can quietly get that to the bank. Two, getting that money out of the country without the VN government stealing it will also be a challenge. Sigh.

The New Hanoian: How can I get my money out of Vietnam? I have proof of source but bank won't accept it. - Answers for Hanoi

The consensus in this thread seems to be that a wire transfer from VN bank to foreign bank should go unchallenged except by fees, but the challenge is getting it into a VN bank in the first place as they have strict requirements for proving the source of the funds. I would think that a real estate sale should come with a mountain of documentation, at least enough to satisfy a bank, but I could be totally wrong, since they are paying cash for houses? Or maybe 'proving the source' means proving it originated from outside Vietnam?

Thanks for the additional info and ideas. Well here's my experience so far. First bank I went to, one that I've been with for years, I talked to the girl who speaks good English, not the manager, because in the small city where I live most banks don't have anyone who speaks English, including the manager. Fortunately, this bank does have one person who speaks Eng well.

She told me that I had to prove the source before I could transfer VND to an account abroad. She also told me that the bank could not sell me dollars, but she knew a gold shop person who would sell me dollars and bring them to the bank, so the whole process would be much safer and easier, and the bank would count them, so I wouldn't be taking any risk.

She said then I could deposit them in a USD account at the bank. But she said that even after that, I could not transfer them out of the country, without proving the source.

I said are you sure, I heard from very reliable advisors that I don't need to prove the source. So she said give her a few days and she will research it. I will go talk to her again in a day or two.

Then I went to another bank where I have accounts. They also have ONE person who speaks English. Much better results there. They said that the bank could sell me dollars, no need for black market, and the bank would let me transfer them out to the US without proving source.

But the bank's fee to transfer $100,000 would be 5 million dong total. I asked if that included the fee that Vietcombank would take as correspondent bank and she said no. She didn't know how much Vietcombank's cut would be.

Fee seems pretty high to me, especially since I'd eventually transfer twice that amount out.

I also sent an email to HSBC but they haven't replied.

ugh, and someone updated with this:

Some rule has been change
the earning in Vietnam subject to profit tax of 28%
The rule now
(1)Same name is also not allow to send if your account is in VND
(2)Only USD in Usd account can transfer oversea
(3)Bank not accept to receive cash USD now to deposit without source link to oversea bring in
(4)The vnd credit card, if deposit and withdraw from ATM, will be 2% exchange rate sur-charge +4% charge =6% charge
(5)Money changer or western union are not allow to send money oversea, only function as receiving only.
(6)You can only pay money for some one who have USD in their bank account to help u tranfer out.

BamaJama17 · Feb 23, 2019

Its On A Slab said:
True story: Gf is from Buenos Aires. She's been in the country for over two decades, but still owned a small apt in BsAs.

She finally sold it a couple years ago. Her Mom went to the closing, and said the buyer showed up with $120,000 in US currency, stashed in the pockets of his trench coat. And he traveled to the closing on the city's subway system. I spent a lot of time on that subway during my visit a year ago, and no way would I carry any significant amount of cash.

So, her 80 year old Mom had to leave the attorney's office, walk down the street to the bank, and deposit the cash.

Yikes I would never carry that much either. That’s a lot of cash no matter what kind of bills they are.

BamaJama17 · Feb 23, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
It'll take time for this to be stopped across the board - this ruling won't do that - but it looks like it sets the stage for an end to these illegal thefts.

A few years ago I drove down to southern MS in order to (potentially) purchase a vehicle. I was paying cash, so I had ~$20k in $100 bills on me, which I hid behind some panels in my vehicles in case I was pulled over for something. I've done nothing wrong, the money was perfectly legal, but in the news (around that time) there had been quite a few people who, just like myself, were minding their own business, pulled over for speeding or similar, and had their money confiscated due to the officer's 'suspicion'.

Nothing screams "a violation of our inherent freedoms" like when a law-abiding citizen feels the need to hide cash from the cops in case they get pulled over...

I would keep it out of sight no matter what. Not like you’d hide drugs but in a brief case etc...

twofbyc · Feb 23, 2019

Jon said:
you'd win that bet

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/14/cocaine.traces.money/

Not for nothing, check out how much contains traces of fecal matter.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1914560_1914558_1914544,00.html

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

crimsonaudio · Feb 23, 2019

BamaJama17 said:
I would keep it out of sight no matter what. Not like you’d hide drugs but in a brief case etc...

Well sure. And I don't travel unarmed. But unless it's hidden the cops might get a wild hair...

cbi1972 · Feb 26, 2019

BamaJama17 said:
I would keep it out of sight no matter what. Not like you’d hide drugs but in a brief case etc...

crimsonaudio said:
Well sure. And I don't travel unarmed. But unless it's hidden the cops might get a wild hair...

I've seen enough movies to know that something spectacularly bad is going to happen if you carry a briefcase full of money around.

Pretty sure there is at least a 50/50 chance it explodes, and flaming bills come fluttering down into the harbor.

News Article: US Supreme Court unanimously limits civil asset forfeiture

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