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Tidewater

Tidewater

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92tide said:
if you get a moment, would you please send me the powerball numbers for this week's drawing ;)
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Earle had asked whether it bothers me at all that there is no explicit right of secession contained in the Constitution.
I provided a detailed exposition (relying on the historical record) to show why the question is not, "Where does the Constitution express the right of a state to leave the Union?" but rather "Where does the Constitution delegate to the general government the power to invade a state, overthrow its elected state government and replace that with an appointed military governor?"
Perhaps you could enlighten us on that question. I would honestly love to see the evidence from the founding period of that assertion. If you could provide it, I might have to reconsider my position and I would be indebted to you.
 
B

Bodhisattva

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Tidewater said:
Earle had asked whether it bothers me at all that there is no explicit right of secession contained in the Constitution.
I provided a detailed exposition (relying on the historical record) to show why the question is not, "Where does the Constitution express the right of a state to leave the Union?" but rather "Where does the Constitution delegate to the general government the power to invade a state, overthrow its elected state government and replace that with an appointed military governor?"
Perhaps you could enlighten us on that question. I would honestly love to see the evidence from the founding period of that assertion. If you could provide it, I might have to reconsider my position and I would be indebted to you.
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You think providing historical and constitutional context to back up your argument is appreciated? You must be new here. ;)
 
92tide

92tide

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Bodhisattva said:
You think providing historical and constitutional context to back up your argument is appreciated? You must be new here. ;)
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i keep wondering when this historical and constitutional context is going to make it into the mainstream. surely there is a demand for the truth. otherwise, the cause may be lost forever.
 
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92tide

92tide

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Tidewater said:
Earle had asked whether it bothers me at all that there is no explicit right of secession contained in the Constitution.
I provided a detailed exposition (relying on the historical record) to show why the question is not, "Where does the Constitution express the right of a state to leave the Union?" but rather "Where does the Constitution delegate to the general government the power to invade a state, overthrow its elected state government and replace that with an appointed military governor?"
Perhaps you could enlighten us on that question. I would honestly love to see the evidence from the founding period of that assertion. If you could provide it, I might have to reconsider my position and I would be indebted to you.
Click to expand...
yes, this has all been posted many times before. hence charmin's post earlier in the thread.
 
Tidewater

Tidewater

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92tide said:
yes, this has all been posted many times before. hence charmin's post earlier in the thread.
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Well, then a substantive response ought to be easy.
Which provision of the Constitution empowers the general government to overthrow by force of arms an elected state government and "replace it with an appointed military governor?
Article IV, Section 4 says this: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."
 
92tide

92tide

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Tidewater said:
Well, then a substantive response ought to be easy.
Which provision of the Constitution empowers the general government to overthrow by force of arms an elected state government and "replace it with an appointed military governor?
Article IV, Section 4 says this: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."
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my earlier response was appropriately substantive.
 
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Bodhisattva

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92tide said:
the context is the lost cause narrative in all it's repetitive glory, honor, and history. the snark is my dismissive response to hearing that over and over again. two separate things. but, ok.
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If you are talking about rednecks/racists who are mouthing some slogans to justify racism and/or misplaced nostalgia, then I agree with you. Tidewater is not in that camp, and his scholarship on the subject is appreciated. To lump in TW with the former is lazy. I am a first generation Southerner. I did not grow up in a household that had an apologetic attitude toward the Old South and its institutions. At the same time, I did not buy the victor's story that war was some holy crusade led by Saint Abe. History is always more complicated and messy. It takes time to sort through it if one is going to have knowledge with depth that is more than a bumper stick slogan. Per usual, both sides are guilty of this.
 
92tide

92tide

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Bodhisattva said:
If you are talking about rednecks/racists who are mouthing some slogans to justify racism and/or misplaced nostalgia, then I agree with you. Tidewater is not in that camp, and his scholarship on the subject is appreciated. To lump in TW with the former is lazy. I am a first generation Southerner. I did not grow up in a household that had an apologetic attitude toward the Old South and its institutions. At the same time, I did not buy the victor's story that war was some holy crusade led by Saint Abe. History is always more complicated and messy. It takes time to sort through it if one is going to have knowledge with depth that is more than a bumper stick slogan. Per usual, both sides are guilty of this.
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those folks aren't coming up with these ideas on their own.
 
Tidewater

Tidewater

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92tide said:
i keep wondering when this historical and constitutional context is going to make it into the mainstream. surely there is a demand for the truth. otherwise, the cause may be lost forever.
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Guys like James McPherson generally do not engage a southern perspective. They find some southerners complaining about the threat to their slaveholding, and then fold their arms, having "proved" that secession was solely about defending slavery.
Anybody who cites any other reason southerners might have wanted out of the Union are simply dismissed as "Lost Causers." No engagement with the argument is necessary. Labeling an author as a "Lost Causer" is shorthand for "nothing to see here. Ignore whatever he might be saying." The logic is tight and entirely circular.

This is why I go back to the founding and demonstrate just how limited the Founders intended the powers of the general government to be. You cannot call James Wilson, Alexander Hamilton, the entire state of Massachusetts ""Lost Causers."
 
92tide

92tide

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Tidewater said:
Guys like James McPherson generally do not engage a southern perspective. They find some southerners complaining about the threat to their slaveholding, and then fold their arms, having "proved" that secession was solely about defending slavery.
Anybody who cites any other reason southerners might have wanted out of the Union are simply dismissed as "Lost Causers." No engagement with the argument is necessary. Labeling an author as a "Lost Causer" is shorthand for "nothing to see here. Ignore whatever he might be saying." The logic is tight and entirely circular.

This is why I go back to the founding and demonstrate just how limited the Founders intended the powers of the general government to be. You cannot call James Wilson, Alexander Hamilton, the entire state of Massachusetts ""Lost Causers."
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"some southerners complaining about the threat to their slaveholding"

other than that mrs. lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
 
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