Mass shooting at mosque in New Zealand (Please no videos)

NationalTitles18

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I never said that.

OK, let's just go to the last part to eliminate any misunderstanding:

What aside from gun control and policy do you do about that?




Indeed. What do we do? Put up with it?

Do we finally start taking mental health seriously? I doubt it. Did this guy even come into contact with the mental health system?

Do we reign in free speech? I don't think we should except that if private businesses want to do so that is their business (TideFans, thank God and Brett, does this) and I'd encourage it for the extreme extremes.

Do we post guards at every potential target? Impossible.

Does everyone arm themselves? For some that is not a viable or desirable option.

Do we teach/preach tolerance? We've been doing that for years (decades) and it hasn't stopped (it's getting worse).

Do we make rational arguments with irrational people? Doesn't work - why do you think immigration is such an emotional hot button issue still despite evidence the positives far exceed the negatives?

How do we counter hate? With love? Nice sentiment and all, but some would rather hate. What then?

Church didn't cure this disease when it was all the rage everywhere (in the US and most everywhere). How's it going to fix the problem now that the hypocrites and hateful people within the church have poisoned the well?
We gonna use surveillance and counter-intel? Please. Between civil rights issues and the complete impotence of government folks countering those messages (not to mention that too many in government and law enforcement share similar views, even if on a milder level) there's not much use even talking about it.

Multi-pronged approach (a little bit of everything)? Sure. I can buy some of that. But how much time and resources ($$$$$) are people really willing to put into it? Hell, people won't pay more in taxes to better schools or to have better roads when they complain both need more money and are vital.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Now that you've dug yourself into a hole, what else besides gun control and policy will have as direct an effect on the ability of a mad evil person to legally acquire such an easy to use deadly weapon that can literally kill 10's of people in minutes?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. There is no different answer.

And that comes from someone who wishes to impose the least amount of restriction as are necessary on gun ownership.

I've touted a plan in the past RE: how to take guns out of the hands of those incapable of having them and preserving civil rights (gun ownership is a civil right) to the fullest extent possible by using the court system as a means of due process when professionals, police, or family have a concern. It's a wonderful compromise and I wish someone somewhere would run with it.

But again, where did this guy do anything to trigger that process, were it to exist? Nothing stopped him from buying a gun. Should there have been a red flag or three along the way? Maybe.

But what else other than gun control or policy would have stopped this? You tell me.

But then tell me what would have happened if he had never been able to acquire a gun? Of any kind. From any where?

It's a valid question. The answer is unavoidable no matter how painful.

I'm not saying I agree with making guns impossible to get because I don't. But what could be done better to keep a nut like him from getting one? And shouldn't that be a desirable thing to do? So how do we do that?
 

crimsonaudio

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It's odd that at a time when guns are more difficult to attain than almost any time in history (at least in the US), these was killings seem to be at an all-time high here.

Not saying more gun control might not stop some of these (nothing short of an outright ban on firearms could hope to stop them entirely), but it's strange to think that 35 years ago guns laws were FAR more lax than they are today, yet far fewer of these shootings occurred.

I think Bazza is wanting to know what's changed. I'm curious as well.
 

NationalTitles18

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It's odd that at a time when guns are more difficult to attain than almost any time in history (at least in the US), these was killings seem to be at an all-time high here.

Not saying more gun control might not stop some of these (nothing short of an outright ban on firearms could hope to stop them entirely), but it's strange to think that 35 years ago guns laws were FAR more lax than they are today, yet far fewer of these shootings occurred.

I think Bazza is wanting to know what's changed. I'm curious as well.
That is a fair question, but not what was previously asked. I wish I knew the answer. The sad truth is that there probably isn't one and I'd beware of anyone who claims to have it.
 

CharminTide

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You can debate gun control and policy all you want.

The reality is there are some people in this world who have very dark hearts.

Some would say they are heartless.

What aside from gun control and policy do you do about that?
 

CharminTide

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It's odd that at a time when guns are more difficult to attain than almost any time in history (at least in the US), these was killings seem to be at an all-time high here.

Not saying more gun control might not stop some of these (nothing short of an outright ban on firearms could hope to stop them entirely), but it's strange to think that 35 years ago guns laws were FAR more lax than they are today, yet far fewer of these shootings occurred.
There have been lots of changes, and all probably contribute. Guns are more advanced and more accessible. The internet lets crazy people congregate and share ideas. Media and some politicians push extremist positions and use increasingly violent rhetoric. The 24 hour news cycle gives glory to mass murderers. Our current president literally asks his supporters to incite violence and refuses to condemn acts of terrorism committed by white men who share his political alignment. Little by little, Americans are becoming more comfortable living in an era where mass gun violence is a constant risk. Etc etc. The list of changes is very long.

I don’t think population-wide mental health care is significantly better or worse now than it was in the 50s. We’ve been failing on that front for a while, so it’s unlikely to be the entirety of the problem IMO. But a lot of other things have measurably changed.
 
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twofbyc

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It's odd that at a time when guns are more difficult to attain than almost any time in history (at least in the US), these was killings seem to be at an all-time high here.

Not saying more gun control might not stop some of these (nothing short of an outright ban on firearms could hope to stop them entirely), but it's strange to think that 35 years ago guns laws were FAR more lax than they are today, yet far fewer of these shootings occurred.

I think Bazza is wanting to know what's changed. I'm curious as well.
There are more than a fair amount of guns sold at gun shows; not sure if they even existed 35 years ago. And there is little regulation there - you can find someone there who will sell you a gun without even showing your DL (I’ve seen this first hand), and it’s not legal to sell a gun to a buyer (not dealer) who doesn’t live in your state.
So there’s that, and the fact more people carry guns and leave them in cars and they get stolen (1,195 in Mobile last year alone - 1,195; think about that for a second).
So there are ways to address this to reduce the bloodshed, knowing full well it will never ever be completely stopped. I for one think making them more difficult to get, if it reduces the slaughter any at all, is worth the increased hassle of buying a gun. Anyone who wants one for legitimate reasons shouldn’t mind either, IMO.


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NationalTitles18

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crimsonaudio

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Guns are more advanced and more accessible.
Nah, guns are far more difficult to buy now and are no more advanced than they were in '68 or '86. Heck, the most common 'machine gun' one can legally buy now is an automatic lower from an M16.

The internet lets crazy people congregate and share ideas. Media and some politicians push extremist positions and use increasingly violent rhetoric. The 24 hour news cycle gives glory to mass murderers. Our current president literally asks his supporters to incite violence and refuses to condemn acts of terrorism committed by white men who share his political alignment. Little by little, Americans are becoming more comfortable living in an era where mass gun violence is a constant risk. Etc etc. The list of changes is very long.
All true. Well, most. These shootings were widespread before 2016 and the internet was hardly a factor before the early 2ks.

I don’t think population-wide mental health care is significantly better or worse now than it was in the 50s. We’ve been failing on that front for a while, so it’s unlikely to be the entirety of the problem IMO. But a lot of other things have measurably changed.
Agreed. I don't have any idea what the issues are, but something has changed. It's not the fan that access to weapons is more difficult.
 

MattinBama

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Agreed. I don't have any idea what the issues are, but something has changed. It's not the fan that access to weapons is more difficult.
Previously mentioned mental health issues. Mass disenfranchisement. Proliferation of divide & conquer politics and fear-mongering politics. Widening wealth inequality and the obvious other inequalities visible from that (justice system, education, healthcare, and so on). The rise & manipulation of social media. Failings in education system. Increased despair & hopelessness from many of these things turning into anger.

The issues are many. And from what I see I don’t feel we’ll ever come together enough to truly fix them.
 

TIDE-HSV

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It's odd that at a time when guns are more difficult to attain than almost any time in history (at least in the US), these was killings seem to be at an all-time high here.

Not saying more gun control might not stop some of these (nothing short of an outright ban on firearms could hope to stop them entirely), but it's strange to think that 35 years ago guns laws were FAR more lax than they are today, yet far fewer of these shootings occurred.

I think Bazza is wanting to know what's changed. I'm curious as well.
These "show crimes" are really historically an anomaly amidst a generally declining homicide rate (with a minor uptick 2015-7),
 

NationalTitles18

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The first RANDOM mass shooting I can remember was the McDonald's in San Diego in 1984. I don't even know what the motive was. Then there were the postal shootings. Then the school shootings. Then just about anything anywhere for any reason. Racism, fame, hatred of women, revenge, pure rage - how in God's name do you stop every negative human emotion from becoming a mass killing? How do you combat so many different motivations? I honestly don't know how you do that. It's sad that in many cases we had laws on the books to stop it but something failed along the way.

The video halfway down the page is graphic. Be advised. (This is regarding a documentary on the McDonald's mass shooting)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sd-me-mcdonalds-documentary-20160920-story.html

So fully auto weapons can only be obtained through a special license. Could the same law be expanded to high capacity magazines (say, greater than 10 rounds, for instance)? I would not be opposed. I understand there would be arguments against it, but there are plenty for it as well. It would be a good compromise, which means anything like it is likely doomed.
 

TIDE-HSV

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The first RANDOM mass shooting I can remember was the McDonald's in San Diego in 1984. I don't even know what the motive was. Then there were the postal shootings. Then the school shootings. Then just about anything anywhere for any reason. Racism, fame, hatred of women, revenge, pure rage - how in God's name do you stop every negative human emotion from becoming a mass killing? How do you combat so many different motivations? I honestly don't know how you do that. It's sad that in many cases we had laws on the books to stop it but something failed along the way.

The video halfway down the page is graphic. Be advised. (This is regarding a documentary on the McDonald's mass shooting)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sd-me-mcdonalds-documentary-20160920-story.html

So fully auto weapons can only be obtained through a special license. Could the same law be expanded to high capacity magazines (say, greater than 10 rounds, for instance)? I would not be opposed. I understand there would be arguments against it, but there are plenty for it as well. It would be a good compromise, which means anything like it is likely doomed.
Tried and expired...
 

TIDE-HSV

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There have been lots of changes, and all probably contribute. Guns are more advanced and more accessible. The internet lets crazy people congregate and share ideas. Media and some politicians push extremist positions and use increasingly violent rhetoric. The 24 hour news cycle gives glory to mass murderers. Our current president literally asks his supporters to incite violence and refuses to condemn acts of terrorism committed by white men who share his political alignment. Little by little, Americans are becoming more comfortable living in an era where mass gun violence is a constant risk. Etc etc. The list of changes is very long.

I don’t think population-wide mental health care is significantly better or worse now than it was in the 50s. We’ve been failing on that front for a while, so it’s unlikely to be the entirety of the problem IMO. But a lot of other things have measurably changed.
Not sure where you get this idea at all. He used five guns, but his two principle ones were AR type, available since the early 1980s...
 

Jon

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The first RANDOM mass shooting I can remember was the McDonald's in San Diego in 1984. I don't even know what the motive was. Then there were the postal shootings. Then the school shootings. Then just about anything anywhere for any reason. Racism, fame, hatred of women, revenge, pure rage - how in God's name do you stop every negative human emotion from becoming a mass killing? How do you combat so many different motivations? I honestly don't know how you do that. It's sad that in many cases we had laws on the books to stop it but something failed along the way.

The video halfway down the page is graphic. Be advised. (This is regarding a documentary on the McDonald's mass shooting)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sd-me-mcdonalds-documentary-20160920-story.html

So fully auto weapons can only be obtained through a special license. Could the same law be expanded to high capacity magazines (say, greater than 10 rounds, for instance)? I would not be opposed. I understand there would be arguments against it, but there are plenty for it as well. It would be a good compromise, which means anything like it is likely doomed.
The "I don't like Mondays" shooting from 1979 is the first I remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)
 

rgw

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I'm a weird guy for the left I suppose but I'm not really for weapon bans. I think the process for acquiring and maintaining firearm ownership needs some work. Before long when you buy a car in this state, it will automatically be registered for the various automative taxes w/ municipalities, county, and state. Every single car title at a new or used car dealership is already documented on location by the state. Obviously, the state has a financial motivation in this degree of paper trail where it does not with firearms. Still, it shows that it is imminently possible for a state to trace firearm ownership. Furthermore it would impose documentation for personal/private sale by threat of prison time if you cannot produce a weapon when some state mandated regularly scheduled inventory is called. They just choose to not go this route because it would rustle the jimmies of some.

But I think it is the only way to go when you consider all the variables involved. The interpretation of the 2nd amendment might guarantee the right to firearm ownership but it doesn't preclude the market from being highly regulated and all sales being prescribed and observed in some fashion by the state.
 

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