Who replaces Avery?

81usaf92 said:

I think a big boy hire at Alabama is very unrealistic with football being king at the level that it is.

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Due to Alabama's impulsive hire and fire process, they've actually paid big boy money, just not when a big boy coach is available.

Avery was the 15th highest paid coach. Grant was top 20. To give an example, Jay Wright (that's what a big boy coach looks like) makes less. It has to feel kind of foolish to be paying Grant and Avery the kind of money Jay Wright makes. Then you move not far past Avery and you get guys like Bennett (6 straight years of making it past the first round of the NCAA tournament, that's the sort of thing Alabama wants to achieve) and Marshall (Alabama already tried so kudos there). It isn't that they're not spending enough, they're just not spending it well.

I would like to bring some levity to the discussion, and this list actually amused me greatly. Here's the top 5 highest paid coaches likely to miss the tournament list. Avery didn't make it (he barely missed), but 3 of the coaches on Alabama's list (and by that I mean circulated candidate lists, not necessarily Battle's) to replace Grant did. That's how Alabama's searches have gone, heh go get the highest paid mediocre guys out there (though in Gregg's defense consistently making the NCAA out of a mid-major is quite a feat). Anyway here you go, this was basically Alabama's list of candidates from the last search: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...st-paid-coaches-likely-miss-ncaas/3137766002/

Also back when we hired Grant, it was a splash hire then. He had just come off of beating Duke in the NCAA tournament the year before we hired him. He was running an uptempo, pressing system, which was supposed to be perfect for the kind of athletes that we typically get in our state. Remember that he was about to be the next head coach at UF when Donovan took the Orlando Magic Job for about a half an hour. It was supposed to be a good hire.

As for Pearl, the PTB were not going to let Battle hire a b-ball coach with Show Cause. It was never just never an option to them. This is why I don’t think that Kelvin Samson is a realistic option because of his NCAA past (he is an amazing coach).






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KrAzY3 said:

Due to Alabama's impulsive hire and fire process, they've actually paid big boy money, just not when a big boy coach is available.

Avery was the 15th highest paid coach. Grant was top 20. To give an example, Jay Wright (that's what a big boy coach looks like) makes less. It has to feel kind of foolish to be paying Grant and Avery the kind of money Jay Wright makes. Then you move not far past Avery and you get guys like Bennett (6 straight years of making it past the first round of the NCAA tournament, that's the sort of thing Alabama wants to achieve) and Marshall (Alabama already tried to kudos there). It isn't that they're not spending enough, they're just not spending it well.

I would like to bring some levity to the discussion, and this list actually amused me greatly. Here's the top 5 highest paid coaches that didn't make the tournament list. Avery didn't make it, but 3 of the coaches on Alabama's list to replace Grant did. That's how Alabama's searches have gone, heh go get the highest paid mediocre guys out there (though in Gregg's defense consistently making the NCAA out of a mid-major is quite a feat). Anyway here you go, this was basically Alabama's list of candidates from the last search: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...st-paid-coaches-likely-miss-ncaas/3137766002/

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But that also ignores who hired Avery to begin with. An AD begging to hire a coach that hires a coach begging to have a job. When Marshall spurned or 4 million deal for a 3 million deal I think Battle had no clue what he was doing and was going to settle for whoever said Yes. Battle will go down as a great football AD but a bad everywhere else.

It also ignores a key ingredient for landing Saban in the first place.... support and control. Only Murph has the kinda leeway, support, and control that Saban has at Alabama. And any coach worth their grain of salt will hold how Anthony Grant was fired against Alabama.

Yes we can throw big boy money around all day, but we don’t have a big boy arena, and we don’t have a big boy support staff in place either. Basketball is basically a tax write off to the AD. Billy Don is going to demand Saban like influence in that what he says goes even if that means the Crimson Standard needs to go in his mind for a brand new arena. Until that changes you can forget a Billy Don type hire.

BamaMike05 said:

Also back when we hired Grant, it was a splash hire then.

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During that hiring process is when I first started arguing that Alabama needed to get a been there done that type of coach, not take fliers on up and comers. I get that it looked good on paper, but even then my point was how do we know this guy is legit if he's only shown limited mid-major success? Remember, three years, two NCAA berths, one round of 32. This was his resume, and no it isn't any worse than Prohm but that's also kind of my point. It's also basically Gottfried's resume as well. Three years, two NCAA tournaments, that got him the Alabama job. But if you're gonna pay a guy like he's proven, wouldn't it be better to just pay a proven guy?

It's sad that the last list of candidates would now double as an overpaid/under-performing list but it's also telling. The problem isn't firing a coach. That's pretty easy. The problem isn't spending 2.5-3.5 on a coach, Alabama will do that either way. The trick is how not to repeat the same mistake Alabama keeps making.

81usaf92 said:

we don’t have a big boy support staff in place either

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That's why I want a been there done that coach. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show Alabama how a mid-major does it. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show them how to get to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Alabama needs someone to come in and show them what it takes to build a basketball powerhouse (and that should include input on the arena, which isn't set in stone I suppose). The money is there, like I said they pay the coach top 15 money, they've committed over 100 million to an arena, they're talking an 8 million buyout for a basketball coach as we speak.

So what Alabama needs more than anything is someone that can tell them what they need. That starts with a coach that's not just shown some potential, that's not just won some games here or there, but that's shown he can build something.That's the way out of this. There's no question in my mind that it's worth waiting, or paying another million per year or so to make that happen. And mind you, if Byrne pulls that off I'll be his biggest fan.

KrAzY3 said:

During that hiring process is when I first started arguing that Alabama needed to get a been there done that type of coach, not take fliers on up and comers. I get that it looked good on paper, but even then my point was how do we know this guy is legit if he's only shown limited mid-major success? Remember, three years, two NCAA berths, one round of 32. This was his resume, and no it isn't any worse than Prohm but that's also kind of my point. It's also basically Gottfried's resume as well. Three years, two NCAA tournaments, that got him the Alabama job.

It's sad that the last list of candidates would now double as an overpaid/under-performing list but it's also telling. The problem isn't firing a coach. That's pretty easy. The problem isn't spending 2.5-3.5 on a coach, Alabama will do that either way. The trick is how not to repeat the same mistake Alabama keeps making.


That's why prior to the Grant hire I starting arguing for a been there done that coach. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show Alabama how a mid-major does it. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show them how to get to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Alabama needs someone to come in and show them what it takes to build a basketball powerhouse. The money is there, like I said they pay the coach top 15 money, they've committed over 100 million to an arena, they're talking an 8 million buyout for a basketball coach as we speak.

So what Alabama needs more than anything is someone that can tell them what they need. That starts with a coach that's not just shown some potential, that's not just won some games here or there, but that's shown he can build something.That's the way out of this. There's no question in my mind that it's worth waiting, or paying another million per year or so to make that happen. And mind you, if Byrne pulls that off I'll be his biggest fan.

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Who do you think fits that bill that's realistic? I'll eat crow if it happens, but Billy D is a laughable suggestion. Gregg Marshall took less money to stay where he was.

There's a long list of coaches we'd like to have, but the overlap of that list with coaches that have any interest in this job is pretty sparse. Take on a program that has shown no real commitment from the athletic department, hasn't had any real success in 15 years, while proving to have a leash with their coaches of about 4 years, in a state with a limited recruiting base? Sign me up!

Given how poor the effort was down the stretch, waiting another year is not a good option. The players clearly had checked out.


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KrAzY3 said:

That's why I want a been there done that coach. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show Alabama how a mid-major does it. Alabama doesn't need someone to come in and show them how to get to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Alabama needs someone to come in and show them what it takes to build a basketball powerhouse (and that should include input on the arena, which isn't set in stone I suppose). The money is there, like I said they pay the coach top 15 money, they've committed over 100 million to an arena, they're talking an 8 million buyout for a basketball coach as we speak.

So what Alabama needs more than anything is someone that can tell them what they need. That starts with a coach that's not just shown some potential, that's not just won some games here or there, but that's shown he can build something.That's the way out of this. There's no question in my mind that it's worth waiting, or paying another million per year or so to make that happen. And mind you, if Byrne pulls that off I'll be his biggest fan.

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lovely optimism doesn't often equal reality. Again Coleman is still probably going to be a bottom 7 arena in the SEC even with these renovations. The only real improvement is placing the student section in a strategic place in the arena. Other than that it just is a corporate renovation.

KrAzY3 said:

Mainly I'm unhappy because, and mind you I've been here discussing the past two coaching searches, this seems stuck on repeat. We've seen this before, subpar candidates, rinse repeat.

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I think you are really jumping the gun here KrAzy because you don't know who's on Byrne's list.

RKel32 said:

Who do you think fits that bill that's realistic?

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I don't see anyone this year, which is why I am not really comfortable with the fact that Avery didn't stick around another year. We get these dueling arguments which is, yeah well there's no good options, but also he had to go. But, if there's no good replacements did he have to go? That's kind of a big part of it. I'm seeing a lot of admissions here that Alabama basketball is basically going in circles here and we're just at the fire the coach stage.

The context here is tens of millions of dollars. Getting rid of him wont' be cheap, he didn't come cheap, his replacement won't come cheap. This feels like building a house and tearing it down again every few years, instead of saying ok wait let's figure out a plan that allows us to just build a really good house instead. A good plan requires resources, patience, and planning ahead (I'm not seeing two of those three here). I say this by the way as someone that rented a single bedroom until he had the money to buy a house with cash. You can keep doing things for modest short term gains, or you can start to plan for the big picture. You just need to be willing to endure short term pain.

On any given year no, Alabama won't be able to land a big name coach. It doesn't work like that. Yet, Memphis landed John Calipari, Louisville landed Rick Pitino (and I know, things got really bad but it was a great hire at the time), and to get a little closer to home, Tennessee landed Rick Barnes (who by the way I floated as a good hire), and Auburn landed Bruce Pearl. The irony being those latter two Alabama could have landed, they've made the NCAA tournament each of the past two years, and they've both won over 53 games the past two years (compared to Avery's 39 and Prohm's 36). Proven coaches, available coaches (not on Byrne but they're not available now are they?)...

BamaMoon said:

I think you are really jumping the gun here KrAzy because you don't know who's on Byrne's list.

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Some context is being missed here because some of my previous comments are no longer on the board. But, to basically bring it back. Either his list has someone like Donovan on it (who even I agree is a long shot), or he probably should have figured out how to keep Avery around for another year while he conducted an extended search. He gets a proven guy, I'll be very happy. Said that before, I hope this isn't what it looks like.

With a mutual buyout agreement and rumors of Avery wanting the Pelicans GM job as far as early February, this discussion can’t solely be about “should he have been fired because I don’t see a candidate with my particular qualifications.”


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KrAzY3 said:

Some context is being missed here because some of my previous comments are no longer on the board. But, to basically bring it back. Either his list has someone like Donovan on it (who even I agree is a long shot), or he probably should have figured out how to keep Avery around for another year while he conducted an extended search. He gets a proven guy, I'll be very happy. Said that before, I hope this isn't what it looks like.

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I don't remember you posting much on the B-ball board during the season. You think CAJ should have been kept? Did you watch how bad we were? Not being able to dribble, pass, run basic inbound plays, rebound....I mean it's been beat worse than a stray dog.

Basically, the program was getting run into the ground.

KrAzY3 said:

Is Alabama going to pay 8 million to get rid of a coach only to replace him with someone that's never really done anything? I mean if Alabama wants to stick with mediocre, they could just save the money and stuck with it. Paying 8 million for more mediocrity while trying to save money makes not one bit of sense.

Edit: I'll ad this about Pitino, he does seem too tarnished. I want to win as much as the next guy, but Bruce Pearl was available, and while dirty was far cleaner, and Alabama decided to stick with Grant one more year. I could justify going with Pearl, but a Pitino hire would reek of desperation, I'd rather Alabama pony up some big boy money than hire Pitino as anything other than an analyst.

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By “never really done anything”, are you speaking of back-to-back Natty Donovan?



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RTR91 said:

rumors of Avery wanting the Pelicans GM job as far as early February

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I said this before and I'll repeat it. If Avery wanted to walk then fine. But it's stupid to pay the guy money to walk isn't it? I'm still seeing people insisting he wanted to stay, I'm still seeing reporting indicating it was Byrne's choice that he go. So, it can't be both ways (and I'd like to know definitively, I am curious). If Avery was leaving, fine, but you'd be the stupidest AD on the planet to pay him money to do leave for another job. If he wasn't leaving, then Byrne could have kept him around and done an extended search. Isn't the most comfortable workplace departures when you give plenty of advanced notice and they have plenty of time to find your replacement? Furthermore, if Alabama found a replacement sooner rather than later, then Avery still could have been given his buyout and sent on his way.

May be, and I keep saying this in one way or another, but may be I'm just in the dark here and the replacement is already found and he is a fantastic hire, then this is great and I'll be really happy. Or, Alabama doesn't pay Avery a cent because someone leaving for another job doesn't deserve a buyout... either of those I'm ok with, it's just option 3 I'm not cool with.

To make this clear, I don't have a problem Avery is gone. I wouldn't have a problem if Avery was gone last year. I have a problem he's gone and I don't see a good replacement in sight.

BamaMoon said:

You think CAJ should have been kept?

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I didn't post here much, I don't usually during the season because it's usually a lot of bickering and it's no fun. That's the perpetual state of Alabama basketball, I watch it but I usually only talk about it during the coaching searches. Contrary to one poster's opinion, I also actually did play high school basketball (even if most my time was spent on the bench), I even had a court in my backyard and had high school state champs and college basketball players over there, so not completely ignorant on the subject of basketball.

Anyway, I think he should have been kept until a suitable replacement was found, yes.

bamanut_aj said:

By “never really done anything”, are you speaking of back-to-back Natty Donovan?

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Absolutely not, if it's Donovan I'll go hang a picture of Byrne on my wall, heck I'll build a shrine.

I feel like currently, Alabama basketball is closer to the teams in football that can have a good team year in/year out but needs to have a strong recruiter with proven player development, or a guy that can really player develop the 3- and 4-star players. That's my perspective of watching Alabama basketball since 2006. Having said that, I think Mick Cronin, Frank Turgeon, Kelvin Sampson would be strong candidates. Maybe even Lon Krueger. Give Billy Donovan a call, although I feel he'll say no; I don't think his present situation at OKC is the same or similar to where CNS was with the Dolphins when he left Miami. But, Byrne is a much more well-rounded AD and he'll want to really elevate all programs, not just football. I think he'll make good with this hire.

KrAzY3 said:

I didn't post here much, I don't usually during the season because it's usually a lot of bickering and it's no fun. That's the perpetual state of Alabama basketball, I watch it but I usually only talk about it during the coaching searches.

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You do realize the football board is much of the same bickering if not more. The only difference is there are more sunshine pumpers there

81usaf92 said:

You do realize the football board is much of the same bickering if not more. The only difference is there are more sunshine pumpers there

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May be it's just me. I actually do try to stay positive, and with Alabama football I can generally find a lot of positive things to say. Not so much with Alabama basketball, heh.

KrAzY3 said:

May be it's just me. I actually do try to stay positive, and with Alabama football I can generally find a lot of positive things to say. Not so much with Alabama basketball, heh.

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Im sure that the football board was like the basketball board back in 2006

Crimson1967 said:

. . . we hired a guy from Transylvania.

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Transylvania?

DogPatch said:

Transylvania?

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It’s where CM was coaching when Bryant hired him.


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81usaf92 said:

Im sure that the football board was like the basketball board back in 2006

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I was given a timeout for my complaints in 2006. :biggrin:

RTR91 said:

It’s where CM was coaching when Bryant hired him.

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So what I'm hearing is that Alabama's coaching search should be extended to include vampires.