CFP expansion thoughts by Barry Alvarez

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CFP expansion should only take place in the context of what I have been advocating for over 25 years: 5 major conferences leaving the NCAA to create an association of schools that are academically high standards + capacity (and interest) to invest in High level athletics across the board. THEN and ONLY then we should talk CFP expansion.
 

KrAzY3

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CFP expansion, IMO, is inevitable. Too much money involved and much more to be made
For the record, when statements like these are made: "Wisconsin athletic director Barry Alvarez said in a recent Q&A the committee isn’t following the criteria for selecting the top four teams", what he's really saying is they're not just automatically selecting conference champions like he wants, and he's mad they're actually choosing the four most deserving teams.

That aside, this entire debate deserves a big I told you so to those that pretended a playoff was about putting in the most deserving teams. That's not what this is about, and it's never what this has been about. It's about inclusion, which is what I said all along.

Finally, a playoff expansion will be the death blow to the bowl games, which is what actually set college football apart for about 100 years.
 

81usaf92

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I would like to remind you that Barry Alverez is known to be the donkey at the board meeting. So putting stock on Barry saying it doesn't necessarily mean things are going to move faster to the inevitable expansion. I think expansion will happen, but I think it will take something like 2011 to happen... and no 2017 doesn't = 2011.
 

81usaf92

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For the record, when statements like these are made: "Wisconsin athletic director Barry Alvarez said in a recent Q&A the committee isn’t following the criteria for selecting the top four teams", what he's really saying is they're not just automatically selecting conference champions like he wants, and he's mad they're actually choosing the four most deserving teams.

.
I think Barry is just wanting to be his old controversial self. I don't think he really cares about the top 4 teams or AQs. He is basically the Steve Spurrier of the North (not near as bad, but he will always start something)

That aside, this entire debate deserves a big I told you so to those that pretended a playoff was about putting in the most deserving teams. That's not what this is about, and it's never what this has been about. It's about inclusion, which is what I said all along.

.
What are you talking about? It is still ' most deserving' over 'best' anyway you slice it with any playoff system. SO you didn't tell anyone so... Only to folks who have been saying BEST do you have an argument about this being about inclusion. DESERVING is based on the criteria of the system of the time. Ex.) 2018 Notre Dame wasn't one of the 4 BEST but they were one of the 4 MOST DESERVING for a championship bout based on the CFP criteria . EX 2) 2011 Oklahoma St was one the 4 BEST teams in the country But was not one of the 2 DESERVING teams for a championship based on the BCS criteria.

Finally, a playoff expansion will be the death blow to the bowl games, which is what actually set college football apart for about 100 years.
Who cares? All I see on here is how there are too many bowl games to begin with. It comes up every December.
 
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KrAzY3

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What are you talking about? It is still ' most deserving' over 'best' anyway you slice it with any playoff system. SO you didn't tell anyone so...
Oh come on you know better. You start putting in conference champs, which is what he wants and where this is headed, you start putting in teams that have no business at all being there.

Some of those would be neither deserving nor best, anyway you slice it... and yes, if you give a team a shot they can win, ask the 10 win Giants team that knocked off an undefeated Patriots team (on the second try). The thing is they don't deserve a shot, and just winning a playoff (which is after all just winning a few games in a row) doesn't make you the best.

Edit:
Who cares? All I see on here is how there are too many bowl games to begin with. It comes up every December.
We don't care about the nothing bowls, but the bowls with true tradition made the college football postseason special. There's a history and tradition there than playoffs in other sports can't match, to destroy that is to destroy one of the things that made college football unique. Some people can't seem to tell why college football and semi-pro football can't appeal to the same audience. Well, it's things like bowl games and tradition that are the difference. You keep chipping away and what you have left is not going to be nearly as special.
 
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81usaf92

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Oh come on you know better. You start putting in conference champs, which is what he wants and where this is headed, you start putting in teams that have no business at all being there.

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The word deserving is based on the system of the time, so it CHANGES based on changes to the system. The word best never changes.

Since you posted before I edited:

Ex.) 2018 Notre Dame wasn't one of the 4 BEST but they were one of the 4 MOST DESERVING for a championship bout based on the CFP criteria . EX 2) 2011 Oklahoma St was one the 4 BEST teams in the country But was not one of the 2 DESERVING teams for a championship based on the BCS criteria.
You see the difference?
Some of those would be neither deserving nor best, anyway you slice it... and yes, if you give a team a shot they can win, ask the 10 win Giants team that knocked off an undefeated Patriots team (on the second try). The thing is they don't deserve a shot, and just winning a playoff (which is after all just winning a few games in a row) doesn't make you the best.
Who cares? Ive said it many times that the best team doesn't usually win the championship in a playoff system, but it is the most fair way to do it with so many teams.


Some of those would be neither deserving nor best, anyway you slice it... and yes, if you give a team a shot they can win, ask the 10 win Giants team that knocked off an undefeated Patriots team (on the second try). The thing is they don't deserve a shot, and just winning a playoff (which is after all just winning a few games in a row) doesn't make you the best.
Just out of curiosity? Did you celebrate our national championship over UGA or our championship over LSU ? Because if you did then this whole statement is very hypocritical
 

selmaborntidefan

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Well, well.......Barry Alvarez was on the playoff committee when they chose non-conference champion Ohio State in 2016.....and NOW all of a sudden he's saying "they" don't follow criteria.


Also......is my math deficient or something?

But when our league is left out of the Playoff three years in a row, I’m not happy about that

2014 - Ohio St
2015 - Mich St
2016 - Ohio St
2017 - year one without a team
2018 - year two without a Big Ten team
 

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Alvarez needs to blame Ohio State, not the committee for the B1G being shut out. The last two seasons Ohio State was embarrassed by two teams (Iowa and Purdue) that they should have beaten easily. Had they only lost those games by close scores then the committee would have probably still chosen them.
 
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crimsonaudio

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Just shut up, Barry - literally no one outside of Madison gives a crap what you think about, well, anything.

You're irrelevant, as you (and frankly, Wisconsin) always have been.
 

KrAzY3

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The word deserving is based on the system of the time, so it CHANGES based on changes to the system.
No, it's not, I reject and have always rejected that notion. Deserving simply means who deserves to be there. That's actually what the debate has been about all along, who does and doesn't deserve it. I find it to be rather warped logic to say that to a committee or something is the final authority on who deserves to be there. My attitude, and it's been consistent has always been that who deserves to be there doesn't change with the methods, but the methods can get it wrong. What we're discussing now is a change to methodology that would almost certainly get it wrong quite often.

Just out of curiosity? Did you celebrate our national championship over UGA or our championship over LSU ? Because if you did then this whole statement is very hypocritical
First, how I feel about the methods doesn't mean I have to hate the results all the time. I don't like the playoffs and by my count Alabama won one they wouldn't have, and lost one they would have won. To simplify it though, yes I think it means a little less now, it eroded the regular season some. One year Alabama loses to an Ohio State team that was only playing because the playoffs gave them a second chance, and another year Alabama wins because of a second chance. I'd prefer the regular season matter more.

As far as the LSU game, I was actually on record as saying it wasn't fair they had to play another game. Having said that, I did support the BCS as a compromise. It wasn't a full scale playoff, it respected the bowl games but it did erode them and the regular season somewhat. I'm not a hardcore supporter of the old bowl system, I was fine with the BCS but I always felt a move to a playoff would ultimately be destructive to both the bowl season and the regular season (both of which are of vital importance) and everything I've seen since then only seems to serve the point. Now it's all who cares about bowl games, when everyone used to care about them. We've already nearly had a two loss team in a playoff... we're well on our way down that path, and to what end?
 

81usaf92

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No, it's not, I reject and have always rejected that notion.
?
Reject it all you want.

Deserving simply means who deserves to be there.
So You do realize what it means, but are too stubborn to admit that the criteria of "deserving" changes. Maybe its pride, or maybe its your never ending BCS crusade. Point is the term deserving changes based on the system...

2013 Alabama was not deserving of a title bout, but what was different in 2017?

That's actually what the debate has been about all along, who does and doesn't deserve it. ?
No the debate has been "4 Best" or "4 most deserving".


I find it to be rather warped logic to say that to a committee or something is the final authority on who deserves to be there. ?
Well the BCS wasn't much better. 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2011 all had highly controversial results. You cant say that all of those are right choices...


. My attitude, and it's been consistent has always been that who deserves to be there doesn't change with the methods, but the methods can get it wrong. What we're discussing now is a change to methodology that would almost certainly get it wrong quite often.

?
But it always has, even the BCS has changed itself on the concept of "deserving" vs "best".

.


First, how I feel about the methods doesn't mean I have to hate the results all the time. I don't like the playoffs and by my count Alabama won one they wouldn't have, and lost one they would have won. To simplify it though, yes I think it means a little less now, it eroded the regular season some. One year Alabama loses to an Ohio State team that was only playing because the playoffs gave them a second chance, and another year Alabama wins because of a second chance. I'd prefer the regular season matter more.

As far as the LSU game, I was actually on record as saying it wasn't fair they had to play another game. Having said that, I did support the BCS as a compromise. It wasn't a full scale playoff, it respected the bowl games but it did erode them and the regular season somewhat. I'm not a hardcore supporter of the old bowl system, I was fine with the BCS but I always felt a move to a playoff would ultimately be destructive to both the bowl season and the regular season (both of which are of vital importance) and everything I've seen since then only seems to serve the point?
But here is the problem, we don't live in the BCS era anymore. So forget all of the BCS logic, and start looking forward instead of backwards. College football is most likely either going to a super conference method and have an NFL playoff or a tourney format. Both suck, but its the fact of life. Personally I believe 6 is the most I would be willing to go to, but I have a feeling that 8 is probably the best we can hope for


.


Now it's all who cares about bowl games, when everyone used to care about them. We've already nearly had a two loss team in a playoff... we're well on our way down that path, and to what end?
Okay, tell me 10 reasons why as an Alabama fan should I get excited to go to the Sugar Bowl this year after losing the SECCG and being out of the CFP? Bowl Games don't matter, and the BCS is a big reason why they haven't.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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Time for a rant. It's been awhile.

Well, you knew it had to happen. Like death, taxes, and CTE, we get a complaint about the CFB playoff committee - and it's neither a new complaint nor a particularly compelling one. It seems that back in 2012 when all the tug 'o war was going on over how this thing was going to happen, the Big 10 and SEC reached a "grand compromise" in language where both thought they were going to get the better of the other. For those without Internet or out of the loop because you were seeing Manti Teo's girlfriend on the side, here is the CFB criteria agreed to by the head of all Five Families.

First, the essay portion everyone skips over so they can go right to the multiple guess questions.....

Establish a committee that will be instructed to place an emphasis on winning conference championships, strength of schedule and head-to-head competition when comparing teams with similar records and pedigree (treat final determination like a tie-breaker; apply specific guidelines).

The key phrase is underlined, but the essay still isn't complete.


The criteria to be provided to the selection committee must be aligned with the ideals of the commissioners, Presidents, athletic directors and coaches to honor regular season success while at the same time providing enough flexibility and discretion to select a non-champion or independent under circumstances where that particular non-champion or independent is unequivocally one of the four best teams in the country.

Note that these are listed BEFORE any tie-breaking criteria..........IOW, if we look at the teams and Team A is a non-champion but UNEQUIVOCALLY one of the four best........that team gets selected.


When circumstances at the margins indicate that teams are comparable, then the following criteria must be considered:

Championships won
Strength of schedule
Head-to-head competition (if it occurred)
Comparative outcomes of common opponents (without incenting margin of victory)


Basically, the Barzini/Delaney family decided that this means "you must win your conference championship," and the Corleone/Slive family - with better lawyers and league offices in Birmingham - decided this means "no you don't." So now after losing out on all the monies from the bidness, Delaney sends out Tessio/Alvarez to lure Sankey into a trap.


“I thought that would be it. But when our league is left out of the Playoff three years in a row, I’m not happy about that. I don’t think we have followed the criteria set by the commissioners in naming those four teams."

As I noted earlier, Barry himself was on that committee. Can we find out whether he supported Ohio St or Penn St in 2016?

But WHERE are the SPECIFICS? Anyone can say what Tessio did right there - but what are the specifics? Whom is he alleging wrongly made the playoff?


But let's really consider this whole eight-team concept.


The 8-team concept has become the fallback argument of those with little more to do than stir up trouble. These are the people who were offered seven straight nights of sex and want to complain they need a king sized bed to make it feel better (although Alvarez could clearly fill one himself).

1) We can't even get TWO GOOD semi-final games with ONLY FOUR TEAMS.

59-20, 38-0, 31-0, 24-6, 30-3

We've had TEN semi-final games now. Only THREE have been closer than 17 points at the end (and one of those was 11).

We can't even get two semi-finals with the four best....and expanding is going to make this BETTER?

2) The comatose bowl games will be gone - which might not be a bad thing.

Once upon a time, you could have a New Year's Day where 3-4 bowl games had a bearing on the outcome of the championship.
Even once we went to the BCS, you could often get some great BCS bowls with teams playing to show they were worthy.

And then we got the playoff, which created a massive increase in the number of future NFL stars saying, "Why should I go to Orlando and play in the Citrus Bowl, when I can go to Disney World and NOT play and NOT get a silly injury in an exhibition game?"

This will increase ten-fold with playoff expansion.

3) Just what the world needs - some 7-6 playoff teams!!!

Just a few months ago we had 7-5 Pitt facing Clemson. What's to stop a Dabo Swinney with an unbeaten #1 who knows they're in regardless from saying, "Our conference will get more money if more teams make it - so I'm going to rest my starters and not risk injury."

Meanwhile, down in Atlanta, the Evil Kirby Luthor and his Legion of Dawgs intentionally injure Alabama's QB, not only diminishing the Tide's chances for the SEC title but for winning the playoff (now expanded to 3 game) even if they win the game.

4) Just wait to hear the crying over the home field advantage in the 4 vs 5 game.

"Yeah, we'll play the games on campus!"

So #5 Florida has to go to #4 Wisconsin.......and a snowstorm that dumps two feet of snow into Camp Randall makes for pretty viewing of snow angels but lousy football. The Big Ten is already so averse to this that they play the "Let's See Who Gets Snubbed This Year" Bowl indoors.

But what if you have a situation like 2017? Should Ohio State, the 2-loss conference champion who couldn't beat Iowa with a hammer, have to go play at the 1-loss NON-champion? Or - flipping the rankings to "reward" Ohio St for scraping by overrated Wisconsin.......should ONE-loss Alabama have to go play AT two-loss Ohio State?

How in the hell can you then say "the regular season is important" if the team with the better record does NOT get home field?
Or how can you say "the conf championship matters" if the non-conf champ DOES get it?

We can guess easily which side of that argument Tim Brando will take - whichever one puts Alabama at a disadvantage.

4) What about Notre Dame?

No, not the cathedral.......the catastrophe of arrogance in South Bend (no, not that guy).

Will Notre Dame be forced to join a conference? It's hardly fair if they are not. Hell, you can even have them rotate among the Five Families - they play a Pac 12 schedule one year, an ACC one year, etc.

I've got plenty more but that's enough for now. I need a nap.
 

KrAzY3

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So You do realize what it means, but are too stubborn to admit that the criteria of "deserving" changes. Maybe its pride, or maybe its your never ending BCS crusade. Point is the term deserving changes based on the system...
I've been remarkably consistent on this issue since I've been here. My position hasn't changed or evolved, the points I've made haven't been proven wrong (I never made the claim like some did that a playoff would never let a second SEC team in for example), and some of my concerns have come to pass. I'm supposed to change my mind because it's gone a lot like I said it would? Furthermore, this topic is actually about some of the stuff I warned would happen with a playoff. This is what happens when we get a never ending playoff crusade I suppose. Every time something comes up the solution is more playoff. It's like the government and money. Oh that didn't work, spend more money. Oh that didn't go like we wanted? Well we just need more playoff. It's ludicrous.

That aside, deserving isn't based on criteria, if it was, if we all accepted that we'd never be here. The reason they did away with the BCS is because they felt some teams got in that didn't deserve to be, that was the whole problem. If we all agreed that every team that deserved to be in the BCS got into the BCS, then why did anything have to change? This is arguing semantics but not sure if you're just trying to disagree with me for the sake of it or what. This isn't really the core discussion though, it's what would happen if they expand it further, and the answer to that is nothing good.

Okay, tell me 10 reasons why as an Alabama fan should I get excited to go to the Sugar Bowl this year after losing the SECCG and being out of the CFP? Bowl Games don't matter, and the BCS is a big reason why they haven't.
Sure, what ever you say, I'll provide you with a list of stuff because you said so...

Bowl games are not what they once were, and yes in particular the addition of the BCS Championship game (rather than just using a bowl game) was part of that, but it's been nothing like what we saw once the playoffs started. The interest has waned significantly, player interest is tepid, and that isn't just about Alabama and Alabama fan's expectations but the health of the sport as a whole.

The first football game I ever watched was on the first. My dad dug up an old black and white TV, despite his church's prohibition on television and put on the bowl games. I remember asking my dad if I should cheer for the team in dark or light. Bowl games on the first were a cultural phenomena. It was like a buffet of bowl games. And yeah, there's a lot to blame for the current state, but I'm not here to just try to score points in another poster like it's some bizarre competition, so yeah the BCS didn't help, but it didn't put bowl games on their death bed either. What we're facing now is a playoff that already dealt a major blow to the bowls, and any further expansion will only serve to move the bowls closer and closer to NIT level irrelevance. That in the long run would be very bad for the sport. It's destroying something that made college football what it is. The focus should be on saving it, not doing further harm.

As I noted earlier, Barry himself was on that committee. Can we find out whether he supported Ohio St or Penn St in 2016.
I've been fine with almost everything they've done (save putting a two loss Auburn team in their top 4, that was wrong), but one major issue I still have with the committee is this secret ballot type stuff. Until their votes are made public, we'll always wonder how much guys like this are working behind the scenes to pull some shenanigans. The problem is we won't really know until they succeed...
 
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selmaborntidefan

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You're either bored or you care far too much about anything Barry Alveraz thinks about, well, anything...
Well.........it might be both.......or it might be neither...........but playoff expansion? YES, I DO care about that.

I've disagreed with a few of krazy's pedantic points, but I've not disputed the reality of how this will reduce season matches to mostly just almost nothing.

Let's go back to 2011............Alabama loses the Game of the Millennium to LSU, 9-6.

2011? We have to tune in to see Boise State and Oregon and Okie State all go down....we watch games we'd never care about and root like hell for whoever

2012? The ATM loss is utterly devastating.........we tune in to see K-State and Oregon lose.......and wow!


Nowadays? 1 Alabama vs 2 LSU?

"Well, both teams are probably gonna be in the playoff anyway....."
 

81usaf92

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I've been remarkably consistent on this issue since I've been here. My position hasn't changed or evolved, the points I've made haven't been proven wrong (I never made the claim like some did that a playoff would never let a second SEC team in for example), and some of my concerns have come to pass. I'm supposed to change my mind because it's gone a lot like I said it would? Furthermore, this topic is actually about some of the stuff I warned would happen with a playoff. This is what happens when we get a never ending playoff crusade I suppose. Every time something comes up the solution is more playoff. It's like the government and money. Oh that didn't work, spend more money. Oh that didn't go like we wanted? Well we just need more playoff. It's ludicrous.

That aside, deserving isn't based on criteria, if it was, if we all accepted that we'd never be here. The reason they did away with the BCS is because they felt some teams got in that didn't deserve to be, that was the whole problem. If we all agreed that every team that deserved to be in the BCS got into the BCS, then why did anything have to change? This is arguing semantics but not sure if you're just trying to disagree with me for the sake of it or what. This isn't really the core discussion though, it's what would happen if they expand it further, and the answer to that is nothing good.


Sure, what ever you say, I'll provide you with a list of stuff because you said so...

Bowl games are not what they once were, and yes in particular the addition of the BCS Championship game (rather than just using a bowl game) was part of that, but it's been nothing like what we saw once the playoffs started. The interest has waned significantly, player interest is tepid, and that isn't just about Alabama and Alabama fan's expectations but the health of the sport as a whole.

The first football game I ever watched was on the first. My dad dug up an old black and white TV, despite his church's prohibition on television and put on the bowl games. I remember asking my dad if I should cheer for the team in dark or light. Bowl games on the first were a cultural phenomena. It was like a buffet of bowl games. And yeah, there's a lot to blame for the current state, but I'm not here to just try to score points in another poster like it's some bizarre competition, so yeah the BCS didn't help, but it didn't put bowl games on their death bed either. What we're facing now is a playoff that already dealt a major blow to the bowls, and any further expansion will only serve to move the bowls closer and closer to NIT level irrelevance. That in the long run would be very bad for the sport. It's destroying something that made college football what it is. The focus should be on saving it, not doing further harm.


I've been fine with almost everything they've done (save putting a two loss Auburn team in their top 4, that was wrong), but one major issue I still have with the committee is this secret ballot type stuff. Until their votes are made public, we'll always wonder how much guys like this are working behind the scenes to pull some shenanigans. The problem is we won't really know until they succeed...
So deserving = Krazy definition of deserving. I guess that is where we are. The problem with that is that it doesn’t answer why “deserving” in 1980 is different from 1998 and 2014. Each system has their own criteria of what constitutes as “deserving”. It however never has a disagreement of what is “best”.

Yes even an average fan knows that we went to a playoff system mostly based off of parity and money. But it doesn’t change the fact that deserving in the BCS is different than deserving in the CFP. 2013 Alabama vs 2017 Alabama both lost to Auburn and both were left out of the SECCG, but one was deserving of a title and one wasn’t. Guess why...

As for the bowl system.... if you want to go down and throw a bunch of money in the French Quarter just to see an uninspired Alabama get smashed by Texas or Oklahoma then go ahead. The BCS and then CFP has made bowl games irrelevant and I just wish they would do away with them all together for just playoff semifinals. But it won’t happen due to money.
 
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