CFP expansion thoughts by Barry Alvarez

selmaborntidefan

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Any playoff expansion should mandate the whole Rose Bowl/Big Ten marriage is over.

"Oh, we want to keep our little man made traditions but we want YOU to get rid of YOURS!"
 

81usaf92

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Any playoff expansion should mandate the whole Rose Bowl/Big Ten marriage is over.

"Oh, we want to keep our little man made traditions but we want YOU to get rid of YOURS!"
The BCS’s greatest mistake was giving the politics bowl (AKA the Rose Bowl) more power than any other bowl game. The college football season’s end and beginning are largely decided by the Rose Bowl.

But fwiw it is the only bowl game that actually matters outside the CFP. So I give them credit for that.
 

TideEngineer08

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What is it with our society nowadays, that we are incapable of saying you know what, we just weren't good enough? We tried, and we failed, but we're going to try harder next time. Instead, we blame the system. The problem is never me... it's everyone else. And this is in every facet of life these days.

Barry, don't suck and you wouldn't get left out of the playoffs. Yes, 4 teams is limiting. It's an elite number, and not everyone gets in. Figure out where you​ failed, and work to get better.
 

IndyBison

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Finally, a playoff expansion will be the death blow to the bowl games, which is what actually set college football apart for about 100 years.
I agree with this statement and felt this way when the BCS started. I'm a huge fan of the bowl system and hope they can keep it. It's unique and exciting. You do end up with "everyone gets a trophy" kind of situations with half the participants ending the season with a victory. But you'll always have controversy over who the national champion is. I contended at the time (mostly to myself) they should either stick with the bowl system and not have a national champion or scrap the bowls and go to a playoff like every other sport in the world (including every other level of college football) and crown a champion that way.

If you do a playoff system for any more than 4 teams you need to start going to campus hosted games. You can't expect fans of teams like Alabama to be able to travel and support a conference championship game and then 3 or more playoff games at neutral sites. That's a lot to expect. This isn't college basketball where you can play games 2 days apart and have 4 or 8 teams in one city. Plus until the final round you are only having to sell 15-20k tickets at most for each session rather than 70-80k in a football stadium. The problem with going to an 8-team or 16-team playoff and scrapping the bowls is you now have 7 or 15 games to generate revenue rather than 40. Even if some of those bowls are lowly attended and lowly watched, you still end up with less revenue and fewer TV viewers overall.

As the playoff expands I feel it will be more about who deserves to be in the postseason than who has a chance to win the the title. Both are elements of every other postseason in every other sport. There are currently 16 teams in the NBA playoffs and only 5 or 6 have a shot at the NBA title. The others are being rewarded for their regular season performance. Some maybe stretched to get there. The regular season does matter less, but it still matters. The Pacers inability to beat the Celtics in the last week of the season mean they had to start the series in Boston rather than at home. I like the possibility of big upset in a playoff but agree it could be considered unfair to that team that was dominant throughout the regular season and then had one bad day. But that's also the beauty of sport.

With any playoff system the champion isn't always the best team. They were just the most successful in the playoffs. If you don't want that for college football you don't want that for any other sport either.
 

GrayTide

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I know I must not be the only one who is tired of all the playoff BS. It would be simpler to just go to an 8 team playoff with the five Power 5 Champions and the highest rated three non champions, seed them all 1-8 with no byes and have at it. As for the other 40 bowl games, I do not care if they survive or not.
 

crimsonaudio

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I know I must not be the only one who is tired of all the playoff BS. It would be simpler to just go to an 8 team playoff with the five Power 5 Champions and the highest rated three non champions, seed them all 1-8 with no byes and have at it. As for the other 40 bowl games, I do not care if they survive or not.
No thanks.
 

RTR91

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I know I must not be the only one who is tired of all the playoff BS. It would be simpler to just go to an 8 team playoff with the five Power 5 Champions and the highest rated three non champions, seed them all 1-8 with no byes and have at it. As for the other 40 bowl games, I do not care if they survive or not.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Let's be diplomatic here and admit something - the BIGGEST PROBLEM with the current setup isn't the teams they choose, it isn't that it's only four teams, it isn't that conference X has been excluded.....


it's the fact that nobody "really" knows what's required to actually make the playoff and (key point here) the COMMITTEE has CAUSED this.

TCU whacked Iowa State in 2014 and was safely in the four slot......and fell behind Ohio State, with a lower SOS. WHY?

Ohio St lost head to head to Penn St and didn't win their conference......but got selected. WHY?

The committee told us that the margin between Alabama, Ohio State, and several other teams was so thin anything could happen........and then Ohio State won the conference title, and the committee THEN told us "it was never that close."

WHY did the committee lie at least once?


THOSE are fair questions we all should have answered.

I can understand why the discussions aren't public but THE VOTE TOTALS should be. You can put their votes like this:

The dashes tell you first place-second place - third place - fourth place votes (the totals are just made up folks)
1) Alabama 9-5-1-1
2) Clemson 4-10-1-1
3) Notre Dame 1-1-9-5
4) Oklahoma 2-0-4-1
5) Georgia 0-0-1-7
6) Ohio State 0-0-0-1

The problem is the committee's lack of transparency and appearing to make things up as they go ("Clemson played that game without Kelly Bryant" might be the nadir of the committee).
 

teamplayer

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I agree with this statement and felt this way when the BCS started. I'm a huge fan of the bowl system and hope they can keep it. It's unique and exciting. You do end up with "everyone gets a trophy" kind of situations with half the participants ending the season with a victory. But you'll always have controversy over who the national champion is. I contended at the time (mostly to myself) they should either stick with the bowl system and not have a national champion or scrap the bowls and go to a playoff like every other sport in the world (including every other level of college football) and crown a champion that way.

If you do a playoff system for any more than 4 teams you need to start going to campus hosted games. You can't expect fans of teams like Alabama to be able to travel and support a conference championship game and then 3 or more playoff games at neutral sites. That's a lot to expect. This isn't college basketball where you can play games 2 days apart and have 4 or 8 teams in one city. Plus until the final round you are only having to sell 15-20k tickets at most for each session rather than 70-80k in a football stadium. The problem with going to an 8-team or 16-team playoff and scrapping the bowls is you now have 7 or 15 games to generate revenue rather than 40. Even if some of those bowls are lowly attended and lowly watched, you still end up with less revenue and fewer TV viewers overall.

As the playoff expands I feel it will be more about who deserves to be in the postseason than who has a chance to win the the title. Both are elements of every other postseason in every other sport. There are currently 16 teams in the NBA playoffs and only 5 or 6 have a shot at the NBA title. The others are being rewarded for their regular season performance. Some maybe stretched to get there. The regular season does matter less, but it still matters. The Pacers inability to beat the Celtics in the last week of the season mean they had to start the series in Boston rather than at home. I like the possibility of big upset in a playoff but agree it could be considered unfair to that team that was dominant throughout the regular season and then had one bad day. But that's also the beauty of sport.

With any playoff system the champion isn't always the best team. They were just the most successful in the playoffs. If you don't want that for college football you don't want that for any other sport either.
That simply isn't true. I love sports, but I love college football more than most, if not all. I love it because it is different. Well, I should say that is one of the things I love about it.
 
Last edited:

BamaFlum

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Let's be diplomatic here and admit something - the BIGGEST PROBLEM with the current setup isn't the teams they choose, it isn't that it's only four teams, it isn't that conference X has been excluded.....


it's the fact that nobody "really" knows what's required to actually make the playoff and (key point here) the COMMITTEE has CAUSED this.

TCU whacked Iowa State in 2014 and was safely in the four slot......and fell behind Ohio State, with a lower SOS. WHY?

Ohio St lost head to head to Penn St and didn't win their conference......but got selected. WHY?

The committee told us that the margin between Alabama, Ohio State, and several other teams was so thin anything could happen........and then Ohio State won the conference title, and the committee THEN told us "it was never that close."

WHY did the committee lie at least once?


THOSE are fair questions we all should have answered.

I can understand why the discussions aren't public but THE VOTE TOTALS should be. You can put their votes like this:

The dashes tell you first place-second place - third place - fourth place votes (the totals are just made up folks)
1) Alabama 9-5-1-1
2) Clemson 4-10-1-1
3) Notre Dame 1-1-9-5
4) Oklahoma 2-0-4-1
5) Georgia 0-0-1-7
6) Ohio State 0-0-0-1

The problem is the committee's lack of transparency and appearing to make things up as they go ("Clemson played that game without Kelly Bryant" might be the nadir of the committee).
And how many games have we played without a bajillion linebackers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

KrAzY3

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So deserving = Krazy definition of deserving. I guess that is where we are. The problem with that is that it doesn’t answer why “deserving” in 1980 is different from 1998 and 2014. Each system has their own criteria of what constitutes as “deserving”. It however never has a disagreement of what is “best”.
First off thanks for not being overly argumentative in your response, I wasn't trying to pick a fight but it felt like it was descending a bit so I appreciate the tone.

As to my definition, and yes from my perspective it's my definition, I'd say deserving is the team most worthy based on their regular season performance in its entirety. Some criteria tried to cherry pick the regular season, overlook some stuff, make some stuff of incredible importance (for instance Auburn beat Alabama so that somehow undoes the fact that Alabama beat two teams that beat Auburn) and dismiss the rest. Deserving should be the entire body of work.
I just wish they would do away with them all together for just playoff semifinals. But it won’t happen due to money.
It shouldn't happen due to money. You and I are not so far apart merely because our views on the BCS, it's on our views of what is best for the sport as a whole. I was looking up some data, and college football managed to go through the 80s and into the 2010s with a fairly consistent level of popularity. This went from the bowl era, to the BCS, without really losing ground, but mind you not really gaining that much either.

What was the only constant? The regular season and bowl games. We saw the addition of conference championship games, the BCS and so on, but the sport stayed steady. I'd add that staying steady was in and of itself an accomplishment. During that period the MLB (while I don't blame this, they expanded their post season) lost so much ground that college football nearly caught up to them (by some metrics it has), and college basketball (which only saw an expanded tournament field) actually saw it's share as the most popular sport cut in half! So college football wasn't broke, it didn't need fixing. We can have our preferences, but I find it hard to look past the bowl system as very good for keeping college football fans in general engaged.

With any playoff system the champion isn't always the best team. They were just the most successful in the playoffs. If you don't want that for college football you don't want that for any other sport either.
I think that's a very interesting point, and I honestly can kind of see both sides. I still think it's a travesty that the undefeated Patriots had to play a 10 win team they'd already beaten a second time to prove their worthiness of a championship. I thought it was ludicrous when a team that was around .500 in their conference won the NCAA tournament. I'm not against playoffs entirely though, but I think they should do a far better job of making sure that the regular season means more than just seeding, and should be limited enough that completely unworthy teams are not getting a shot at a championship. The perspective I really disagree with across all sports is a kind of one size fits all approach many have, for instance if you win your conference/division, you automatically get into a playoff regardless of how you played. In the NFL that's lead to teams with losing records not only making the playoff but playing a home game.

The problem is the committee's lack of transparency and appearing to make things up as they go ("Clemson played that game without Kelly Bryant" might be the nadir of the committee).
The more I think about it the more I feel like incorporating the polls and computers, with the committee as the final third might be the best solution. Then again one can argue they want the system to be broken so they have impetus for expansion. But, if they used the polls as one third of the vote, computers as one third, and then let the committee be the final third, they could be the tie breaker of sorts. This way, if you have something like the BCS trying to decide between LSU/Oklahoma/USC, the committee is empowered to make that choice. However, they wouldn't be able to just ignore everything and veer off in their own direction, because they'd still only be a third of the vote, and if there is agreement between the computers and polls, their job would basically be to rubber stamp that. But we'll never see something like that...
 

81usaf92

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Let's be diplomatic here and admit something - the BIGGEST PROBLEM with the current setup isn't the teams they choose, it isn't that it's only four teams, it isn't that conference X has been excluded.....


it's the fact that nobody "really" knows what's required to actually make the playoff and (key point here) the COMMITTEE has CAUSED this.

TCU whacked Iowa State in 2014 and was safely in the four slot......and fell behind Ohio State, with a lower SOS. WHY?

Ohio St lost head to head to Penn St and didn't win their conference......but got selected. WHY?

The committee told us that the margin between Alabama, Ohio State, and several other teams was so thin anything could happen........and then Ohio State won the conference title, and the committee THEN told us "it was never that close."

WHY did the committee lie at least once?


THOSE are fair questions we all should have answered.

I can understand why the discussions aren't public but THE VOTE TOTALS should be. You can put their votes like this:

The dashes tell you first place-second place - third place - fourth place votes (the totals are just made up folks)
1) Alabama 9-5-1-1
2) Clemson 4-10-1-1
3) Notre Dame 1-1-9-5
4) Oklahoma 2-0-4-1
5) Georgia 0-0-1-7
6) Ohio State 0-0-0-1

The problem is the committee's lack of transparency and appearing to make things up as they go ("Clemson played that game without Kelly Bryant" might be the nadir of the committee).
Actually it is pretty transparent of who they pick. They pick based on wins and losses from the Power 6 (counting ND in here). I think the biggest flaw in the system is more that it punishes the #1 seed, not that it leaves out a #5 seed.
 

81usaf92

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It shouldn't happen due to money. You and I are not so far apart merely because our views on the BCS, it's on our views of what is best for the sport as a whole. I was looking up some data, and college football managed to go through the 80s and into the 2010s with a fairly consistent level of popularity. This went from the bowl era, to the BCS, without really losing ground, but mind you not really gaining that much either.

What was the only constant? The regular season and bowl games. We saw the addition of conference championship games, the BCS and so on, but the sport stayed steady. I'd add that staying steady was in and of itself an accomplishment. During that period the MLB (while I don't blame this, they expanded their post season) lost so much ground that college football nearly caught up to them (by some metrics it has), and college basketball (which only saw an expanded tournament field) actually saw it's share as the most popular sport cut in half! So college football wasn't broke, it didn't need fixing. We can have our preferences, but I find it hard to look past the bowl system as very good for keeping college football fans in general engaged.


..
Why I keep saying the BCS killed bowls is because it 1) made too many bowls and 2) it eliminated the appeal of playing in a big regional bowl game. In the poll era the Sugar, Rose, Orange, and Fiesta all could have a team playing for a national championship in it so there were real stakes. In the BCS you only have 1 game (not counting 2003). Unless they cut the number of bowls by 3/4ths then I don't think they will ever mean anything ever again. So personally I don't see a reason other than conference money to keep them.


Bowl games will always be POPULAR but wont always be a good or meaningful game. I think the problem is that once you get a piece of the real cake nothing really matters anymore.
I think what I'm getting at is that yes fans are still going to flock to the Quarter because its a fun trip, but is it really that great to see Alabama get schlacked by a Big XII school?

Since 1998 the SEC school in Atlarge BCS NY6 bowl:

January 2vs. No. 18 Syracuse*No. 7
ABCW 31–1067,919
January 28:00 PMvs. No. 3 Nebraska*No. 6
ABCL 21–3171,526
January 28:00 p. m.vs. No. 6 Maryland*No. 5
ABCW 56–2373,640
January 3, 20077:00 p.m.vs. No. 11 Notre Dame*No. 4
FOXW 41–1477,781[SUP][1][/SUP]
January 18:30 pmvs. No. 10 Hawaii*No. 4
FoxW 41–1074,383
January 2, 20097:00 p.m.vs. No. 7 Utah*No. 4
FOXL 17–3171,872
January 1vs. No. 4 Cincinnati*No. 5
FoxW 51–2465,207
January 48:00 PMvs. No. 6 Ohio State*No. 8
ESPNL 26–3173,879[SUP][24][/SUP]
January 2vs. No. 22 Louisville*No. 4
ESPNL 23–3354,178
January 2, 20147:30 p.m.vs. No. 11 Oklahoma*No. 3
ESPNL 31–4570,473
December 316:30 p.m.vs. No. 10 Georgia Tech*No. 8
ESPNL 34–4958,211
December 3111:30 a.m.vs. No. 6 TCU*No. 9
ESPNL 3–4265,706
January 1, 20167:30 p.m.vs. No. 16 Oklahoma State*No. 12
ESPNW 48–2072,117
January 27:30 p.m.vs. No. 7 Oklahoma*No. 17
ESPNL 19–3554,077
January 111:30 a.m.vs. No. 10 UCF*No. 7
  • Mercedes–Benz Stadium
  • Atlanta, GA (Peach Bowl)
ESPNL 27–3471,109
January 1, 20198:30 p.m.vs. No. 15 Texas*No. 5
ESPNL 21–2871,449
January 1, 201912:00 p.m.vs. No. 7 UCF*No. 11
ESPNW 40–3257,246


That's 7-10, but if we break it down to the SEC dominance era forward (2006- present) its 5-9. It pretty much means that only one thing matters in college football, and that is a championship. I think with more players having NFL aspirations than never before, I think there is a less of a drive to win a Pride Sugar Bowl game over not getting hurt. Other than getting rid of the vast majority bowl games I don't think we will ever get back to having meaningful bowl games worth our time. The one exception is the Rose Bowl, and its mostly because outside (USC, TOSU, Washington, and PSU) every team in those two conferences would trade a national championship for a Rose Bowl victory.

The NFL rarely has a flawed SB champion, and rarely has an unexciting postseason. I think the major problem with college football is that it IS trying so desperately to hold onto the bowl season, and its oversaturated the sport. A 5-7 team can really go to a bowl game
 
Last edited:

IndyBison

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That simply isn't true. I love sports, but I love college football more than most, if not all. I love it because it is different. Well, I should say that is one of the things I love about it.
What I'm saying is if you only want teams in the playoffs that have a legitimate shot to win the championship then the NBA, NHL, and NFL should only have 4-6 teams in their playoffs. NCAA basketball should only have 12-16 teams. The Olympics should only have about 6 or 8 countries. But in every team sport other than college football making the playoffs for many teams is the goal. For other teams it's winning a game or two. For some teams it's being the little guy with a shot to beat the big guy.

I understand what you are saying and respect it though. Would you feel the same way if you were a fan of a school like Mississippi State? Your chance of winning a national championship is extremely rare. At this point going to a bowl is somewhat meaningless so it's hard to get excited about it. But if you could have a goal of making a 16-team playoff this year you have something to play for. Or maybe you have a good senior class so you could set a goal to win a game or two and maybe get into the final 4 with an upset.

Ultimately it comes down to: what is the purpose of the playoff? Is it to determine the best team in the league/country? Or is to to provide a post season for recognition of a successful season and a means to determine a tournament championship? The latter is almost impossible by any system because it can be very subjective unless everyone plays everyone.
 

DzynKingRTR

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What I'm saying is if you only want teams in the playoffs that have a legitimate shot to win the championship then the NBA, NHL, and NFL should only have 4-6 teams in their playoffs. NCAA basketball should only have 12-16 teams. The Olympics should only have about 6 or 8 countries. But in every team sport other than college football making the playoffs for many teams is the goal. For other teams it's winning a game or two. For some teams it's being the little guy with a shot to beat the big guy.

I understand what you are saying and respect it though. Would you feel the same way if you were a fan of a school like Mississippi State? Your chance of winning a national championship is extremely rare. At this point going to a bowl is somewhat meaningless so it's hard to get excited about it. But if you could have a goal of making a 16-team playoff this year you have something to play for. Or maybe you have a good senior class so you could set a goal to win a game or two and maybe get into the final 4 with an upset.

Ultimately it comes down to: what is the purpose of the playoff? Is it to determine the best team in the league/country? Or is to to provide a post season for recognition of a successful season and a means to determine a tournament championship? The latter is almost impossible by any system because it can be very subjective unless everyone plays everyone.
I think all sports should reduce the number of teams in their playoffs. Realistically only about 4-6 really have a chance to win it. A 16 team playoff is the dumbest idea in a history of dumb ideas.
 

Valley View

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It's going to expand, too many crybabies are crying. Somebody has to lose each game, that's just a fact unless we just quit keeping score and give out participation trophies. Maybe if they did just that the whiners would be happy!
 

selmaborntidefan

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Actually it is pretty transparent of who they pick. They pick based on wins and losses from the Power 6 (counting ND in here). I think the biggest flaw in the system is more that it punishes the #1 seed, not that it leaves out a #5 seed.
It's transparent AT THE END.......but the whole 2017 Ohio St-Alabama-USC concept.......they flat out lied.

You don't go from, "The margin between 4 and 8 is minuscule" (e.g. if Ohio St beats Wisconsin that will give them the bump) to "It wasn't even close between Alabama and Ohio St" AFTER they win the B1G championship.

That's nothing but hogwash.


Now.....it DOES appear that the cmte functions pretty much like the old poll vote did. "Basically, we rank on the basis of the number of losses unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise."

And I'm okay with that.
 

DzynKingRTR

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It's transparent AT THE END.......but the whole 2017 Ohio St-Alabama-USC concept.......they flat out lied.

You don't go from, "The margin between 4 and 8 is minuscule" (e.g. if Ohio St beats Wisconsin that will give them the bump) to "It wasn't even close between Alabama and Ohio St" AFTER they win the B1G championship.

That's nothing but hogwash.


Now.....it DOES appear that the cmte functions pretty much like the old poll vote did. "Basically, we rank on the basis of the number of losses unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise."

And I'm okay with that.
If they had told the truth in 2017, no one would have watched the Big 10 championship and no one would have watched their selection show. We would have known already and no need to even bother watching. Plus we would not have gotten to see all the butthurt if we knew a week ahead of time.
 

selmaborntidefan

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If they had told the truth in 2017, no one would have watched the Big 10 championship and no one would have watched their selection show. We would have known already and no need to even bother watching. Plus we would not have gotten to see all the butthurt if we knew a week ahead of time.

How about this:

"The final field is by no means set, and we are awaiting the results of this weekend's contest before selecting the teams. We would remind you that the criteria place an emphasis on conference championships (e.g. so tune in this Saturday and watch them there ballgames) while not making it a requirement (Alabama fans, you need to watch ALL the games and root like hell for Ohio State.....and then hope)."

Saying the gap was so close did nothing but make them look like the liars they were.
 

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