Game of Thrones SPOILERS

81usaf92

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For those that think Martin will do a totally different ending than this.... I beg to differ. This episode is right out of Martin's playbook. A big setup, a diverted expectations conclusion, and an unsatisfying taste of a fan favorite character's arc. There maybe a different path of getting there that Martin maybe better at than D&D, but I dont doubt for a minute that we are going to get the Mad Queen Dany and Queen Slayer Jon ending like we are getting now.
 

rgw

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Yeah. I think you’re right. But a story is more often about how you get to the end than the end itself. This feels rushed and poorly charted.
 

81usaf92

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Yeah. I think you’re right. But a story is more often about how you get to the end than the end itself. This feels rushed and poorly charted.
I blame it mostly on HBO. Because once again they ran out of money, and were forced to condense a long complex story like they did with Rome. I think the ending for the show is mostly okay, the books may flesh it out a little better, but ultimately I think both were building towards this conclusion.
 

4Q Basket Case

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We all saw this coming with Dany. So let’s see how Jon and the Starks/North will handle her.
Dany's officially over the edge. She's not giving up the throne voluntarily, and it won't end well for her. Somebody's going to take her out. Guessing it's Arya, with Tyrion as an alternative possibility.

I think it's clear Arya rode off with the intention of being the assassin. But Dany also warned Tyrion that his next betrayal would be his last. Shortly after which, he went and freed Jamie. She will kill him unless someone gets to her before she has the chance, so Tyrion might view a pre-emptive strike as self-defense. Trouble is, he'd have to get past Grey Worm, and that's no small feat.

Dark, dark horse is Jon Snow. When she had Drogon incinerate Varys, the way he looked at Dany said volumes -- he suspected she was coming unhinged before. He knew it then. Then she burned up a whole city, with tens of thousands of innocent casualties, simply because she was mad about Missandei's execution and Jon's better claim to the throne, and could do it. Jon watched all that innocent slaughter, and had to fight his way out of the city. While I have no doubt he will keep his thoughts to himself, I think he now sees Dany as unfit.

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if Dany burned the whole city actually hoping that Jon would be caught up in the conflagration, and thereby taken out as a claimant to the throne. Of course, he's a Targaryen, so fire might not harm him. Would the fact that the fire came from a dragon matter? I don't know. Could get interesting.
 
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tusks_n_raider

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Of course, he's a Targaryen, so fire might not harm him. Would the fact that the fire came from a dragon matter? I don't know. Could get interesting.
Jon is not immune to fire. He burns his hand badly in Season 1 at the Wall by throwing a lantern at a Wight.

Not all Targaryen's are immune to fire..... only rare special ones have this ability.
 

81usaf92

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After a few days of processing and hearing all the other takes....

This season is probably in the running for the worst season with season 5 and 7. Its not because that ending(s) don't make sense like some believe, its because they feel rushed and not totally earned. Dany turning crazy and the Others (white walkers in show) being a macguffin are not totally out of left field turns, and there are plenty of seeds in the show and books to support both. I just think this story should've gotten two more 8 episode seasons to flesh out these drastic turns better. Right now its the equivalent of keeping all of the original Star Wars trilogy intact with the exception of omitting one scene and changing another in Return of the Jedi. If you were to take out the scene where Yoda and Obi wan confirm Vader was Luke's father and have Vader admit he was lying about it to turn Luke to the dark side then you would have an understandable ending, but ultimately an ending that feels that it needed more to justify that ending.

To address a few criticisms Ive come across...


1) That its the worst ending ever in a TV show.... No it isn't. I don't think anything compares to Lost. Ive never finished the Shield or the Sopranos, but Ive heard they were bad too. But Lost made no sense whatsoever atleast Thrones makes sense if you think about it. You may not like it, or like how we got there through writing, but it makes sense.

2) These are Last Jedi subversions... No they aren't... Well maybe depending on your view on Arya being the one killing the Night King. But ultimately I think these subversions make sense according to the narrative and the character arcs, but aren't totally fleshed out.

3) The book readers.... Here is one of my biggest gripes the past few seasons, and its the book readers acting like Martin will do it totally different or do it totally better. They have gotten way louder these past five weeks, and its time to address the elephant(s) in the room....

A) Martin has been clear that there will only be 7 books and we have already gotten 5. As it stands there are a lot of central plot points that have to be resolved to stick the ending. We have to have a resolution of the whitewalkers, a resolution about the faith militant, a resolution of the Boltons, a resolution on the Stannis story, need to know if Jon is alive, Dany needs to cross the narrow sea, and an end to the war of the 7 kingdoms. So that's a lot of huge plot points to put into 2 books, and its probably going to take 1200 page books to finish it in a satisfying way.

B) Martin never has and never will be Tolkien's equal. I think this maybe the core of the problem. A lot of the rabid fans of the books want Martin's books to be on par with LOTR, but the ending the show has presented threatens it from happening in their eyes. If you ever read A Song of Ice and Fire then you would probably feel "A Game of Thrones" (the 1st book) is a very good book, but as you get further along in the series the quality drops, and books start to feel longer. I think what Tolkien did is probably a rarity, and will never be duplicated. Even Harry Potter had issues in the center of the series.

C) This is Martin's ending.... Again, Martin has said it over and over again that the show wouldn't end very differently to the books. I think Dany killing innocents has totally made the book readers mad that they have invested in this character for over 20 years that they just want to believe this is D&D being hacks and idiots instead of their favorite writer being a cruel sadistic Santa Claus. Lets be real anyone that really has been reading in between the lines knows Jon is the hero and basically everyone who tries to take the Iron Throne has a degree of evil qualities. So I don't know what folks were expecting Martin to do.

D) Martin's constant trolling should really tell you that he either has no idea how to end this or he wants to so desperately not go the LOTR ending route that he has chosen this ending... or perhaps both. I think a good bit of his delay on the Winds of Winter is mostly due to see how the show ends so he can change a few things.

E) Martin's lack of involvement from season 5 onward should be telling that he doesn't want to be associated with the show with the exception of pre production conferences. I think many book fans try to believe this is due to his disgust with the direction, but I think its more to do with that he knows the ending isn't going to be liked by many. I think he doesn't want to kill his book sales by being directly associated with the TV show because he knows fans of the books are going to hate this ending and are going to be hoping for a different ending in the books.

Overall I give this season 6/10. ranking seasons:

1. 4
2. 3
3. 1
4. 2
5. 6
6. 8
7. 7
8. 5
 
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rgw

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I blame it mostly on HBO. Because once again they ran out of money, and were forced to condense a long complex story like they did with Rome. I think the ending for the show is mostly okay, the books may flesh it out a little better, but ultimately I think both were building towards this conclusion.
Allegedly HBO was pleading for more episodes and willing to give Benioff and Weiss significantly more money for a full 10 episode season 7 and 8. Benioff and Weiss declined. I think it is because they are signed to do the next Star Wars trilogy and they wanted out of this commitment as soon as possible.
 

rgw

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Coincidentally, I think 7 more episodes to fill out a 20 episode final two seasons is really what they needed to sensibly fill out the story. The teleportation across the map and every cunning character becoming a dope are signs of a production staff that really didn't care anymore and just wanted to do what was contractually obligated.
 

81usaf92

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Allegedly HBO was pleading for more episodes and willing to give Benioff and Weiss significantly more money for a full 10 episode season 7 and 8. Benioff and Weiss declined. I think it is because they are signed to do the next Star Wars trilogy and they wanted out of this commitment as soon as possible.
Its possible, but I think holding down contracts like Clarke, Walsu, Dinkeledge, and Heady probably also factored into it. But if this is the case then it is a bad sign for D&D especially Beniof. Beneioff has a bad movie attached to his name... X Men Origins, and a failure from GOT will not bolster well for him down the line.

Coincidentally, I think 7 more episodes to fill out a 20 episode final two seasons is really what they needed to sensibly fill out the story. The teleportation across the map and every cunning character becoming a dope are signs of a production staff that really didn't care anymore and just wanted to do what was contractually obligated.
That or just do 9 -10 8 episode seasons with Miguel Sapochnik getting the nod as lead writer. I think we all pretty much can accept Dany the Mad Queen, and the Walkers not being a real threat. I think the issue is how we got there.
 

rgw

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Its possible, but I think holding down contracts like Clarke, Walsu, Dinkeledge, and Heady probably also factored into it. But if this is the case then it is a bad sign for D&D especially Beniof. Beneioff has a bad movie attached to his name... X Men Origins, and a failure from GOT will not bolster well for him down the line.



That or just do 9 -10 8 episode seasons with Miguel Sapochnik getting the nod as lead writer. I think we all pretty much can accept Dany the Mad Queen, and the Walkers not being a real threat. I think the issue is how we got there.
Sapochnik's episodes this season were inexplicable though. This show fell apart from the top downward. The last four major battle eps directed by Sapochnik were nonsense.
 

81usaf92

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Sapochnik's episodes this season were inexplicable though. This show fell apart from the top downward. The last four major battle eps directed by Sapochnik were nonsense.
Yeah but how much was his fault? I think he did the best with what he was given
 

TideMom2Boys

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Well that was underwhelming....



There were some parts that I liked, but most of that ending felt like they ran out or money/time and storyline.
 

81usaf92

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I’ll be honest. I read spoilers prior to tonight’s episode because last week kinda rubbed me the wrong way a bit to the point I wanted to be prepared for something underwhelming. I have to say that the only issue that bothered me was Bran becoming king. Other than that I was okay with the ending
 

BamaSC

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Bran becoming king feels weird to me. It may make more sense to me later, but there’s little reason to think he is a bad choice. Overall, I think it ended well. I just wish we got to this point other than the clumsy, rushed way we got here.

One of the most poignant outcomes of the whole series is that they’re basically putting things back almost exactly the way they were save for birthright crowns. The north is “free”, but Sansa has been a bit power-hungry and I have doubts that is a good situation. It almost makes everything that happened meaningless. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but I think it more highlights human nature in that we’re stubborn and fail to learn from our own mistakes.
 

Jon

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Well that was underwhelming....



There were some parts that I liked, but most of that ending felt like they ran out or money/time and storyline.
HBO was willing to give them more time and more episodes. The showrunners were done so they wrapped it up poorly. Shame too, 6 great seasons, 1 mediocre and a terrible final season

Shame

 

jthomas666

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Random thoughts:

Strong opening--Tyrion finding Jaime and Cercei just killed me.

The whole Triumph of the Will speech was overdone, but looked fantastic.

The actual death of Dany was waay too forced, as though they felt compelled to make it even more obvious that she had to die.

Drogon's reaction to her death was oddly compelling, though. And I totally called the throne getting slagged.

I'm still a little fuzzy on the goal of sending to Unsullied to watch over Naarth (?), given that they'll all die without issue.

Would have preferred Sansa on the throne, but her declaring the North's independence was pretty good.

Like the idea of Arya just going off to explore.


It really seemed like a bunch of half-baked ideas, some good, some bad, all of which needed a few more rewrites.
 

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