75th anniversary of D-Day...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Go Bama

Hall of Fame
Dec 6, 2009
13,819
14,175
187
16outa17essee
In German, it means "smoke thrower." In order to skirt the Versailles restrictions, the Germans billed it as a device to fire smoke shells. In fact, high explosive shells were designed for it from the outset...
In another video I watched they talked about how long it took to move the nebelwerfer into position and ready it to fire. After firing there was so much residual smoke they were easy to locate thus there was a high casualty rate among the soldiers who handled the nebelwerfer.
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
I read Speer's book a long time ago. He got off light, IMO...
Mostly because he was conveniently absent at a meeting that he spoke at when Himmler was talking about the implementation of the Final Solution. Making it difficult to say that he absolutely knew (which he did) of the atrocities his government were performing
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
Even if Beck and Stauffenberg succeeded, its unlikely that they would have kept power long enough to work out a surrender with the Allies or that the Allies would accept anything they tried to work out (Stalin and FDR specifically).

But I guess it did show that there were many that opposed Hitler in Germany, and it was heroic.
 
Last edited:

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,610
39,827
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Even if Beck and Stauffenberg succeeded, its unlikely that they would have kept power long enough to work out a surrender with the Allies or that the Allies would accept anything they tried to work out (Stalin and FDR specifically).

But I guess it did show that there were many that opposed Hitler in Germany, and it was heroic.
A cynic would say they opposed him only when the handwriting was on the wall. You're correct that most historians believe that, by the time the assassination attempt unfolded, the handwriting was on the wall and unconditional surrender was the only route open to Germany...
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
A cynic would say they opposed him only when the handwriting was on the wall. You're correct that most historians believe that, by the time the assassination attempt unfolded, the handwriting was on the wall and unconditional surrender was the only route open to Germany...
Once Winston Churchill lost his status as FDR's most important person in the world, he had to give Stalin his revenge to keep the Russians from conquering ALL of Europe, and starting a new phase in the War. Both the US and USSR were demanding unconditional surrender. So anyone dealing with Allies after Operation Citadel ended in total failure was dealing with an unconditional surrender.

I think there were many that actually did oppose Hitler well before the war went south for Germany, but feared going against him for obvious reasons. I think a big fear is who would take power after the deed was done. Ofcourse Beck succeeding in his coup would be the best for everyone, but its the most unlikely. So who does that leave? Himmler, Goebbles, Goerring, Boremann, Brack, Keitel, and Donitz. Out of all of them Donitz is the only one that isn't a fanatic, and wouldn't be on par with Hitler. So I think this reality is one that prevented many from wanting to try to kill Hitler.
 
Last edited:

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,610
39,827
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Once Winston Churchill lost his status as FDR's most important person in the world, he had to give Stalin his revenge to keep the Russians from conquering ALL of Europe, and starting a new phase in the War. Both the US and USSR were demanding unconditional surrender. So anyone dealing with Allies after Operation Citadel ended in total failure was dealing with an unconditional surrender.

I think there were many that actually did oppose Hitler well before the war went south for Germany, but feared going against him for obvious reasons. I think a big fear is who would take power after the deed was done. Ofcourse Beck succeeding in his coup would be the best for everyone, but its the most unlikely. So who does that leave? Himmler, Goebbles, Goerring, Boremann, Brack, Keitel, and Donitz. Out of all of them Donitz is the only one that isn't a fanatic, and wouldn't be on par with Hitler. So I think this reality is one that prevented many from wanting to try to kill Hitler.
They actually did have a plan to arrest all those you named, which is the only way it would have worked. Too little, too late, IMO...
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
They actually did have a plan to arrest all those you named, which is the only way it would have worked. Too little, too late, IMO...
Himmler dodged so many near assasinations himself. It’s hard to catch a paranoid man. Look at Bin Laden and Sadam

Goering, Keitle, and Bormann were almost always with Hitler. So any assasination of Hitler would be an assasination of them. More or less the bomb needed be big enough for 4.

Goebbles would probably be the easiest to get.

Donitzwas a military man so if the tide turned in Beck’s favor then Donitz would probably side with Beck.

Point is the plan was more of a Hail Mary from the 1 yard line at best. If the plan was to just kill Hitler and some of his inner circle then there was probably a high chance of success. But to initiate Valkyrie was just too much to go right.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,466
13,305
287
Hooterville, Vir.
Even if Beck and Stauffenberg succeeded, its unlikely that they would have kept power long enough to work out a surrender with the Allies or that the Allies would accept anything they tried to work out (Stalin and FDR specifically).
The counter argument would be the case of Finland. In the summer of 1944, Finland was in a bad situation. They had lashed their wagon to the German horse and things were not looking too good. They proposed to Stalin that they surrender and all they wanted was to avoid a Soviet occupation afterwards. Stalin looked at att the Soviet troops the Finns were tying down and said, "You know what? I could use those troops elsewhere. Deal." So the Finns turned a really bad strategic situation into not unconditional surrender, but secured the limited goal of avoiding Soviet troops occupying Finland forever. As events in eastern Europe showed, this concession was not nothing.
Maybe, if the assassination had worked, the post-Hitler German authorities could have secured something more than just unconditional surrender. If nothing else, they could have saved a bunch of useless German deaths between July 1944 and May 1945. Heck, the Japanese secured the retention of the emperor.
But I guess it did show that there were many that opposed Hitler in Germany, and it was heroic.
I asked a German colleague about von Stauffenburg and he said, "The military should not be in the business of killing the head of state."
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,610
39,827
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Himmler dodged so many near assasinations himself. It’s hard to catch a paranoid man. Look at Bin Laden and Sadam

Goering, Keitle, and Bormann were almost always with Hitler. So any assasination of Hitler would be an assasination of them. More or less the bomb needed be big enough for 4.

Goebbles would probably be the easiest to get.

Donitzwas a military man so if the tide turned in Beck’s favor then Donitz would probably side with Beck.

Point is the plan was more of a Hail Mary from the 1 yard line at best. If the plan was to just kill Hitler and some of his inner circle then there was probably a high chance of success. But to initiate Valkyrie was just too much to go right.
You know, I've never heard any evidence that Bormann, Keitel or Göring were in the conference room. They may have been at Wolfsschanze. I'll see if it's possible to find them. I thought it was just lower military officers...
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,610
39,827
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Once Winston Churchill lost his status as FDR's most important person in the world, he had to give Stalin his revenge to keep the Russians from conquering ALL of Europe, and starting a new phase in the War. Both the US and USSR were demanding unconditional surrender. So anyone dealing with Allies after Operation Citadel ended in total failure was dealing with an unconditional surrender.

I think there were many that actually did oppose Hitler well before the war went south for Germany, but feared going against him for obvious reasons. I think a big fear is who would take power after the deed was done. Ofcourse Beck succeeding in his coup would be the best for everyone, but its the most unlikely. So who does that leave? Himmler, Goebbles, Goerring, Boremann, Brack, Keitel, and Donitz. Out of all of them Donitz is the only one that isn't a fanatic, and wouldn't be on par with Hitler. So I think this reality is one that prevented many from wanting to try to kill Hitler.
OK, here you are. Only Keitel (if it were "Keitle," the pronunciation would be "Keit-luh) was there. The other high-ranking was Jodl, but he was known as a military man mostly, and not as a prominent Nazi, although he was executed as a war criminal following the Nuremberg trials. BTW, my criminal law professor was a prosecutor at the trials, Clint McGee. He used to keep us on the edge of our seats with tales...
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
OK, here you are. Only Keitel (if it were "Keitle," the pronunciation would be "Keit-luh) was there. The other high-ranking was Jodl, but he was known as a military man mostly, and not as a prominent Nazi, although he was executed as a war criminal following the Nuremberg trials. BTW, my criminal law professor was a prosecutor at the trials, Clint McGee. He used to keep us on the edge of our seats with tales...
I know the first attempt by the these particular plotters had Göring and Bormann, but was called off because Himmler wasn’t there.

The second attempt had both but Hitler left the room.

I think after two attempts that were aborted they felt the more they aborted the more they risked being revealed or lose support. So they probably didn’t care as long as they got Hitler.


Oddly enough the most famous person to die was the gold medalist colonel Brandt. The same guy who allegedly moved the suitcase


Hitler had a bunch of luck or someone looking after him with all the assasination attempts that failed or were aborted.
 
Last edited:

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,610
39,827
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
I know the first attempt by the these particular plotters had Göring and Bormann, but was called off because Himmler wasn’t there.

The second attempt had both but Hitler left the room.

I think after two attempts that were aborted they felt the more they aborted the more they risked being revealed or lose support. So they probably didn’t care as long as they got Hitler.


Oddly enough the most famous person to die was the gold medalist colonel Brandt. The same guy who allegedly moved the suitcase


Hitler had a bunch of luck or someone looking after him with all the assasination attempts that failed or were aborted.
I didn't add the link. The Gestapo was already on their tails...

Wiki
 

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
63,451
67,350
462
crimsonaudio.net
July 21, 1944: Operation Goodwood ends in the southwest of Caen, the British having progressed only 7 miles despite several thousands of tons of bombs having been dropped on the German positions. The Allies have suffered 3,600 casualties and 469 Allied tanks are out of commission, and the town of Falaise, which was one of the objectives of the Goodwood offensive, is far from being reached. Despite these discouraging reports, general Montgomery is pleased; the Germans sent many tanks to the southeast of Caen, which will allow the American forces to move south in the days to follow.

There is still no air support in Normandy due to the strong rains which fall constantly. The Americans are about to launch a massive offensive, Operation Cobra, and therefore limit contact with the German forces (which benefit from this and attempt to resupply). The Germans have been severely tested in the area around Saint-Lo, and their incredible resistance of this city has caused serious problems as the troops are exhausted and short on ammunition. In preparation for Operation Cobra, which must begin in the next few days (as soon as good weather returns), the 8th Infantry division organizes reconnaissance missions in the west of Saint-Lo.

1,110 bombers of US 8th Air Force are launched from England against Germany, hitting München (Munich), Saarbrücken (targeting rail marshalling yards), Oberpfeffenhofen, Walldrun (targeting rail marshalling yards), Regensburg, Stuttgart, Schweinfurt, and other locations; a total of 31 bombers and 8 escorting fighters are lost.

On the eastern front, 1st Shock Army of Soviet 3rd Baltic Front captures Ostrov. 42nd Army of Soviet 3rd Baltic Front attacking Pskov. Soviet 1st Byelorussian Front pushing toward Lublin and Brest-Litovsk. German XIII Korps under heavy attack between Kovel and Lvov.

In Italy, on British 8th Army front, German units withdraw from Citta di Castello overnight. New Zealand 2nd Division and South African 6th Armored Division of British 8th Army relieving French Expeditionary Corps (US 5th Army), which is withdrawn from the line to prepare for invasion of southern France. US 12th Air Force attacks transportation lines and bridges over the Po River while US 15th Air Force attacks Mestre.

Hitler makes a public broadcast shortly after midnight: ‘You may hear my voice and know that I am uninjured and well.’

Pictured: Royal Engineers move through the ruins of Caen, looking for mines and booby-traps, July 1944.; An American infantryman dashes down a street to take shelter behind a knocked-out US tank destroyer (left), in the shell-riddled town of Saint-Lô on July 21, 1944; Three Nazi prisoners rounded up during mopping-up operations in Saint-Lô on July 21, 1944. Two of them are bare-footed and without tunics.; Map of Normandy liberated by the Allies, July, 1944

721a.jpg

721b.jpg

721c.jpg

721d.jpg
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,466
13,305
287
Hooterville, Vir.
New Zealand 2nd Division and South African 6th Armored Division of British 8th Army relieving French Expeditionary Corps (US 5th Army), which is withdrawn from the line to prepare for invasion of southern France.
This will be very important. The invasion of southern France (which was executed way too late in my view) was led by three American divisions (3rd ID, 36th ID and 45th ID), but the follow-on French divisions secured Marseilles, one of the largest ports in Europe.
 
Last edited:

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,351
31,586
187
South Alabama
Mythbusters did an episode on it and it talked about the table being a reason the bomb wasn’t as effective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The biggest problem wasnt the table, it was the room had windows. Had the meeting happened in the bunker like it was planned then everyone in that room wouldve been dead table or no tabel, but unfortunately Hitler believed it to be too hot that day so they moved the meeting to an area with windows above ground.

Basically 3 things went in Hitler's favor without him knowing:

1) The second bomb wasnt armed because a junior officer pressured the two conspirators to hurry
2) The meeting was held above ground in a room with windows instead of below ground in a room of concrete
3) The Bomb was moved

On July 20, 1944, Stauffenberg arrived to the bunker at Wolfsschanze. The conspirators had counted on the meeting taking place in a concrete, windowless underground bunker sealed by a heavy steel door. By ensuring it took place within such a facility, the blast would be contained and the shrapnel would instantly kill anyone in the proximity of the explosive device.According to Pierre Galante’s Operation Valkyrie: The German Generals’ Plot Against Hitler, July 20 was an unbearably hot day and the meeting planners decided to move the meeting to a wooden bunker, above ground, which had greater air circulation. The room had numerous windows as well as a wooden table and other decorative pieces of furniture, meaning the potential explosion would be significantly reduced as the energy of the blast would be absorbed and dissipated.
https://time.com/5629999/operation-valkyrie-july-plot/
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

New Posts

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.