I've always thought we should have placed our resources there, rather than Italy. OTOH, I've heard the argument that we tied down a lot of Germans in Italy. That may be true, but they wouldn't have had so much help from the Terrain in France...
75th anniversary of D-Day...
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David Reynold's an Oxford Historian explores this in a Netflix documentary 1942 and Hitler's Soft Underbelly. He discusses the British fear of another land war on the continent and the need to protect British interest in Africa in particular. The video is also available in a couple of installments on You Tube. Churchill coined the phrase Europe's soft underbelly but Italy proved to be a very tough piece of hide to chew!
If you look at the link Earle posted earlier, toward the bottom there’s is a diagram of where everyone was in the room at the time of the explosion. The three men who were killed were all to the right of the right leg of the table. Two had legs blown off. They were no more than a few feet from Hitler. This is enough for me to believe the table saved Hitler’s life.
The one one thing that does bother me is why the meeting was moved from the underground bunker to the room with windows supposedly because of heat. Shouldn’t it have been much cooler in an underground bunker? Every underground room I’ve ever been in was just naturally cool.
Yes that saved his life in the scenario it was in (open room and only one bomb) , but the table would've been a meaningless variable if either A) the meeting happened in the bunker like planned and 2) 2 bombs were armed.
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopene...r-stauffenberg-assassination-plot-failed.html
More or less the change of venue had more of an effect on the situation. They planned for a bunker, and got an open meeting room. The moving of the suitcase behind the oak table was the last of many things in their plan to go wrong. Had either the venue not been changed, or the second bomb been armed then its likely Hitler doesn't walk away from that room even if the suitcase is moved
But what do you expect from a guy that has cheated death so many times like Hitler did? I think its more of a cruel miracle that Hitler survived WWI after 1) not being able to put on his gasmask because his moustache was too long only to find out the shell was dud 2) Having a British soldier have him a gun point only to pity him enough to let him go, and 3) being gassed.
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Personal opinion, the Allies should have gone passive in Italy as soon as the Italian government capitulated (September 1943), certainly by the fall of Rome (June 1944). As long as Germany had lots of coastline to defend the geography would tie down German forces. More coastline meant more German forces tied down.
The Allies had taken Corsica by September 1943. Think about that, land-based fighters could have been in Corsica in October 1943 and that put southern France in range of Allied fighters any time thereafter.
Italy was an operational dead end. The Brenner Pass was taken from the north in May 1945.
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I'll have to go full-force lawyer on you.
One of the first things you take up in law school is the difference between "but for" reasoning and "proximate causation." You're indulging in "but for." Yes, if you extend that out, you can find hundreds of factors which, if they had changed, would have ended up with Hitler dead. However, the proximate cause of his survival was the massive table pedestal. You look for the major factor closest to the event...
Here is a picture from the opposite end of the table. You can see the legs were huge, unlike the skinny oak legs in the movie clip.
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I still say that the venue change was the ultimate reason that it failed to kill him. Everything else just lessened the chance of success. Stauffenberg at that point would've been better off just becoming a suicide bomber (An early idea ironically by the last plotter to die in 2013) once he knew what area he was going to be in, and that he only had 1 bomb. Otherwise you are banking that Hitler stays in the same position, the bomb was stronger than you thought, or the suitcase doesn't get moved. But yes the immediate issue was the table in a room with circulation.I'll have to go full-force lawyer on you.
But I think the biggest problem with the plot, and ultimately its undoing, was that It was filled with a bunch of men who couldn't agree on how it was going to be carried out or who was a soldier, a Nazi, or a monarchist. They had several times that they could've killed Hitler, but something or someone would always get in the way of it being implemented. There have been sources suggesting that Rommel's (If he knew at all) uneasiness to join was due to the argument between if Hitler should be arrested or killed, and how surrender should happen. There were more prominent generals, and officers (Manstein, Kluge, and Bock) who knew and had good reasons to want to end Hitler's reign , but the wishy washy nature of the majority of the main party prevented them from joining.
Probably the reason Tresckow backed Stauffenberg and urged him to go through with the plan was because he knew he was the only one besides Tresckow himself that was bold enough to go through with it. Even after Stauffenberg left the Wolf's Lair, Olbricht and Beck wasted some vital hours before implementing Valkyrie, allowing the SS to regroup. This is why even if they succeeded in killing Hitler they probably still lose to the SS. They really needed more aggressive leaders instead of remnants of the Kaiser's army who haven't adapted to the time.
Typical German plan: grossly overcomplicated. If you can smuggle a dad gum bomb into the Fuhrer's presence, why not just smuggle a pistol in and shoot him?
That was the first idea they had, but a good portion of them feared that Hitler wore a second chance vest. So then you had to go with either Tresckow's plan of bombing him, or Goerdeler's idea of forcing Hitler to resign or arrest him. Neither great ideas because they both had low success rates, but I think I would go with Tresckow's plan over Goerdeler's because I rather not have the honor of Hitler laughing at me before I die while I try to get him to step down or attempt to put him in cuffs.
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“But for Colt getting hurt ...”I'll have to go full-force lawyer on you.
It may have been that because Stauffenberg had lost an eye, his right hand, and two fingers of his left hand. He may not have been able to handle a pistol.
It’s more likely he was trying to survive and get away with murder.
Whatever the reason, I agree it was overcomplicated.
Your problem is with your definition of "ultimate." The change of the venue was "penultimate"...
July 22, 1944: As US 1st Army prepares for Operation Cobra in the south of the Cotentin peninsula, the 358th Regiment of the 90th American Infantry division attacks in the direction of the village of Saint-Germain-sur-Seves, 3 miles north of Periers. Due (in part) to the lack of air support from the bad weather, the US losses are very high and the two battalions do not manage to enter the village. Weakened, they retreat and must defend their positions against counterattacks by the German infantry and tanks. During the offensive the 358th American Regiment loses nearly 700 soldiers (100 killed or missing in action, 400 wounded and 200 prisoners). Saint-Germain-sur-Seves is not reached.
Despite general Montgomery’s being pleased, Operation Goodwood is considered a failure by the Americans - the losses were too high (3,600 soldiers killed and 469 destroyed tanks). The British progressed only by 7 miles and the front line is as follows: the road connecting Fleury-sur-Orne to Saint-Andre-sur-Orne to the south of Caen is safe and the villages of Bourguebus and Frenouville are liberated. But the British and Canadian troops are stopped cold.
Over France, RAF Bomber Command sends 60 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites during the day. Due to poor weather, small numbers of US 9th Air Force fighters and bombers attack transportation lines, fuel dumps, and other targets.
On the eastern front, in Ukraine, the Brody Pocket is eliminated; Soviet forces capture 17,000 German prisoners of war. To the north, Soviet units capture Panevezys, Lithuania. The Soviet 3rd Belorussian Front captures Chelm as they advance toward Lublin. Soviet forces liberate the Lublin-Majdanek concentration camp (located three miles east southeast of Lublin) and find fewer than 500 prisoners left in the camp. The camp was the first to be liberated from Nazi control, and Soviet officials invited journalists to see the horrors of Nazi oppression. In less than three years of operation, between 95,000 and 130,000 prisoners had been murdered at the site.
In Italy, American troops enter the outskirts of Pisa while troops of from both the 8th and 5th armies advance to within 15 miles of Florence; the towns of Castelfiorentino and Tavernelle are occupied and Polish troops in the Adriatic area press northwards from Ancona. US 12th Air Force makes limited attacks in poor weather conditions against transportation lines and other targets including Lucca, Florence, Genoa, and Milan.
Pictured: Prime Minister Winston Churchill standing in a staff car, talking to British and Canadian troops at the 'Winston' bridge over the River Orne. With the Prime Minister is the Commander of the British 2nd Army, Lieutenant General Sir Miles Dempsey; Dodge WC52 with trailer from Service Co.112thIR arrives at Omaha, July 22, 1944; The scene outside the NAAFI in Caen, 22 July 1944; Soviet forces liberate Lublin-Majdanek
Despite general Montgomery’s being pleased, Operation Goodwood is considered a failure by the Americans - the losses were too high (3,600 soldiers killed and 469 destroyed tanks). The British progressed only by 7 miles and the front line is as follows: the road connecting Fleury-sur-Orne to Saint-Andre-sur-Orne to the south of Caen is safe and the villages of Bourguebus and Frenouville are liberated. But the British and Canadian troops are stopped cold.
Over France, RAF Bomber Command sends 60 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites during the day. Due to poor weather, small numbers of US 9th Air Force fighters and bombers attack transportation lines, fuel dumps, and other targets.
On the eastern front, in Ukraine, the Brody Pocket is eliminated; Soviet forces capture 17,000 German prisoners of war. To the north, Soviet units capture Panevezys, Lithuania. The Soviet 3rd Belorussian Front captures Chelm as they advance toward Lublin. Soviet forces liberate the Lublin-Majdanek concentration camp (located three miles east southeast of Lublin) and find fewer than 500 prisoners left in the camp. The camp was the first to be liberated from Nazi control, and Soviet officials invited journalists to see the horrors of Nazi oppression. In less than three years of operation, between 95,000 and 130,000 prisoners had been murdered at the site.
In Italy, American troops enter the outskirts of Pisa while troops of from both the 8th and 5th armies advance to within 15 miles of Florence; the towns of Castelfiorentino and Tavernelle are occupied and Polish troops in the Adriatic area press northwards from Ancona. US 12th Air Force makes limited attacks in poor weather conditions against transportation lines and other targets including Lucca, Florence, Genoa, and Milan.
Pictured: Prime Minister Winston Churchill standing in a staff car, talking to British and Canadian troops at the 'Winston' bridge over the River Orne. With the Prime Minister is the Commander of the British 2nd Army, Lieutenant General Sir Miles Dempsey; Dodge WC52 with trailer from Service Co.112thIR arrives at Omaha, July 22, 1944; The scene outside the NAAFI in Caen, 22 July 1944; Soviet forces liberate Lublin-Majdanek
July 23, 1944: Marshal von Kluge sees that the German forces are becoming exhausted in the Cotentin peninsula, so he requests Hitler’s authorization to carry out a strategic retreat of all the soldiers and vehicles in the west of Normandy. Hitler, having refused the majority of retreats since D-Day, finally accepts. The American forces continue their ‘punch’ operations to maintain the contact with the German soldiers and to observe the new positions taken by the enemy. The weather, still very bad, continues to delay the start of the Operation Cobra. The American troops are near Lessay and try to push in direction of Periers, continuing contact with the Germans. While continuing to prepare for the offensive, they mass towards the various points which will be used as departure points Operation Cobra. The American units receive new uniforms, helmets, and get rid of useless materials which could slow them down. General Bradley decides that the infantry needs to attack ahead of of the tanks in Operation Cobra, whereas Montgomery uses the opposite strategy.
The British reinforce their positions to the south of Caen, weakened by the losses of Operation Goodwood. The American High-Command is very critical of general Montgomery who is considered incompetent to lead in the east. Furthermore, the small amount of space controlled by the British and Canadian forces does not allow the creation of multiple runways, which seriously handicaps the Allied air forces at this stage of the Battle of Normandy. Eisenhower even proposes Montgomery’s dismissal to the English Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, which is ignored. This highlights the tension within the Allied forces.
After dark, a large group of British bombers attacked Kiel, Germany; the attack lasts through midnight. The German fighters summoned to intercept go after the decoy force rather than the main force.
Above France, US 8th Air Force attacks airfield with 243 bombers supported by 187 fighters. US 9th Air Force attacks bridges, fuel dumps, transportation lines, and enemy positions with 330 bombers supported by fighters. RAF Bomber Command sends 60 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites during the day, 116 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites overnight, and 119 aircraft to attack Donges overnight.
On the eastern front, Soviet forces capture Pskov. This was the last major town of the prewar USSR to have been held by German forces. To the south, troops of the 1st Ukrainian Front enter Lublin. German forces continue to resist in Lublin.
In Italy, elements of the US 4th Corps (part of US 5th Army) penetrate the outskirts of Pisa but are only able to occupy the area south of the Arno River. British 8th Army captures Tavernelle. US 12th Air Force aircraft attack transportation lines, enemy positions, and other targets in support of ground operations as well as bridges over the Po River.
Pictured: Oft-overlooked are the combat engineers, who work on or just behind the front lines commonly repairing and clearing damaged roads, railways and bridges. Here we see the 300th Combat Engineers reconstructing a railroad bridge five miles north of Saint Jean de Daye, Normandy, July 23, 1944. On the left Maj. Crandall, Battalion Commander, observes the work.; Cows killed while grazing in a meadow offer protection to American soldiers from the gun fire of the enemy, during the fighting near the town of Periers on July 23, 1944, along the road to the German stronghold of Saint-Lo; Truck loaded with US troops of the 4th Infantry Division, move up to the front on July 23rd for Operation Cobra assault; Infantryman of the Regina Rifles Regiment manning a Bren gun position. Vaucelles, July 23, 1944
The British reinforce their positions to the south of Caen, weakened by the losses of Operation Goodwood. The American High-Command is very critical of general Montgomery who is considered incompetent to lead in the east. Furthermore, the small amount of space controlled by the British and Canadian forces does not allow the creation of multiple runways, which seriously handicaps the Allied air forces at this stage of the Battle of Normandy. Eisenhower even proposes Montgomery’s dismissal to the English Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, which is ignored. This highlights the tension within the Allied forces.
After dark, a large group of British bombers attacked Kiel, Germany; the attack lasts through midnight. The German fighters summoned to intercept go after the decoy force rather than the main force.
Above France, US 8th Air Force attacks airfield with 243 bombers supported by 187 fighters. US 9th Air Force attacks bridges, fuel dumps, transportation lines, and enemy positions with 330 bombers supported by fighters. RAF Bomber Command sends 60 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites during the day, 116 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites overnight, and 119 aircraft to attack Donges overnight.
On the eastern front, Soviet forces capture Pskov. This was the last major town of the prewar USSR to have been held by German forces. To the south, troops of the 1st Ukrainian Front enter Lublin. German forces continue to resist in Lublin.
In Italy, elements of the US 4th Corps (part of US 5th Army) penetrate the outskirts of Pisa but are only able to occupy the area south of the Arno River. British 8th Army captures Tavernelle. US 12th Air Force aircraft attack transportation lines, enemy positions, and other targets in support of ground operations as well as bridges over the Po River.
Pictured: Oft-overlooked are the combat engineers, who work on or just behind the front lines commonly repairing and clearing damaged roads, railways and bridges. Here we see the 300th Combat Engineers reconstructing a railroad bridge five miles north of Saint Jean de Daye, Normandy, July 23, 1944. On the left Maj. Crandall, Battalion Commander, observes the work.; Cows killed while grazing in a meadow offer protection to American soldiers from the gun fire of the enemy, during the fighting near the town of Periers on July 23, 1944, along the road to the German stronghold of Saint-Lo; Truck loaded with US troops of the 4th Infantry Division, move up to the front on July 23rd for Operation Cobra assault; Infantryman of the Regina Rifles Regiment manning a Bren gun position. Vaucelles, July 23, 1944
I did not know this. This is a touchy subject, especially an American suggesting the dismissal of a Brit.
Not surprised Churchill ignore it. Monty was the most successful commander the Brits had.
He wore his success in North Africa with pride, but was largely unsuccessful in Normandy. I think Bradley or Patton would have had greater success than Monty in and around Caen.
I studied North Africa intensely when younger. (I would still like to go to Tobruk, Gazala, and Halfaya Pass, but given the security situation there, that is unlikely).
At El Alamein, the Brits outnumbered the Axis 2-1, and half the Axis troops were nearly worthless Italian troops. (A side note, FDR ordered the 1st Armored Division to hand over all of its tanks to ship them to Egypt for use by the UK 8th Army.) Victory over the Axis was not that great of an achievement. Monty was very methodical, taking one position after another and attritting the Axis until Rommel's position became untenable. Monty bragged about pushing Rommel back 2,000 km (El Alamein to Mareth, Tunisia), but for most of that, Rommel was hotfooting it to get to Tunisia because of the Torch landings in Algeria. In other words, Rommel would have made the same move if nobody was "pushing" him.
I will give Monty some credit. He made the men of the 8th Army believe in themselves and that ain't nothing. Overall he was over-rated but the best the Brits had.
Thank you - this is largely the impression I've had of the NA campaign for years, and hearing it from you confirms this. Also explains why he struggled to mightily when facing seasoned professional warriors who were didn't want to give an inch.
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