75th anniversary of D-Day...

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Tidewater

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Thank you - this is largely the impression I've had of the NA campaign for years, and hearing it from you confirms this. Also explains why he struggled to mightily when facing seasoned professional warriors who were didn't want to give an inch.
To give you an idea of just how worthless the Italians were, near El Alamein in the summer fo 1942, a British General and his aide were in a car that somehow missed the British front lines, and accidentally drove into an Italian infantry platoon. A nearby German unit saw it, and a German captain went over to the Italian position to investigate. The Italians explained to the German that this British general had found them and they were negotiating their surrender to the two Brits. The German captain told them, "uh, no, you're not surrendering to them, they are surrendering to us."
The Italians said, "Aw, man!" (or the Italian equivalent) and reluctantly accepted the surrender of the Brit general and his aide.

Another example from the aftermath of El Alamein. The Germans sent the Ramcke Parachute brigade to El Alamein. Once Rommel started his retreat, the German paras, like most of the Italian infantry units found themselves without vehicles. Italian units surrendered in droves. Ramcke (the same Ramcke who would command the fanatical defense Brest France in 1944) set his men up in an ambush on the coastal highway, ambushed a British supply convoy, confiscated the trucks and joined the Axis retreat.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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To give you an idea of just how worthless the Italians were, near El Alamein in the summer fo 1942, a British General and his aide were in a car that somehow missed the British front lines, and accidentally drove into an Italian infantry platoon. A nearby German unit saw it, and a German captain went over to the Italian position to investigate. The Italians explained to the German that this British general had found them and they were negotiating their surrender to the two Brits. The German captain told them, "uh, no, you're not surrendering to them, they are surrendering to us."
The Italians said, "Aw, man!" (or the Italian equivalent) and reluctantly accepted the surrender of the Brit general and his aide.

Another example from the aftermath of El Alamein. The Germans sent the Ramcke Parachute brigade to El Alamein. Once Rommel started his retreat, the German paras, like most of the Italian infantry units found themselves without vehicles. Italian units surrendered in droves. Ramcke (the same Ramcke who would command the fanatical defense Brest France in 1944) set his men up in an ambush on the coastal highway, ambushed a British supply convoy, confiscated the trucks and joined the Axis retreat.
I think it's safe to say the rank and file Italian soldier's heart was never in that war, if they are in any. They're great in one on one violence but not so much in military violence...
 

Tidewater

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I think it's safe to say the rank and file Italian soldier's heart was never in that war, if they are in any. They're great in one on one violence but not so much in military violence...
I like the Italians I work with, but the Italians of Mussolini's Italy were not into it.
Italian cooking? Great. Love-making (so I'm told)? Great. War? Not so much. They haven't been worth much for the last half a millennium.
In the winter of 1940-1, 70,000 Brits in the Western Desert Force beat the snot out to 250,000 Italian troops at Sidi Barrani and chased the survivors all the way across Cyrenaica, which was why Rommel was sent to Libya in the first place.
 

UAH

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I like the Italians I work with, but the Italians of Mussolini's Italy were not into it.
Italian cooking? Great. Love-making (so I'm told)? Great. War? Not so much. They haven't been worth much for the last half a millennium.
In the winter of 1940-1, 70,000 Brits in the Western Desert Force beat the snot out to 250,000 Italian troops at Sidi Barrani and chased the survivors all the way across Cyrenaica, which was why Rommel was sent to Libya in the first place.
As you are aware Italy joined the Allied powers in 1914 in the hopes of claiming new territory from Austria-Hungary. They ended up in a stalemate with much of both armies in defensive position in the frozen alps with the great hardships that entailed. They had little appetite for prolonged suffering again as did the Brits who had to be essentially forced back into another land war on the European Continent. I can well understand that.
 

UAH

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I did not know this. This is a touchy subject, especially an American suggesting the dismissal of a Brit.
Not surprised Churchill ignore it. Monty was the most successful commander the Brits had.
If Roosevelt, Marshall and Eisenhower did not feel that Monty was capable, it escapes me why resources would be diverted to Montgomery in such a major way, to conduct Market Garden, over impossible terrain to support such a major operation. By that point in time the combined American armies were threatening the Rhine and Ruhr region. Taking that a step further if Ike had stayed with the major thrust into Germany all German forces would be required to defend the homeland and thus the Ardennes offensive would likely have not occurred.

The Americans, Marshall in particular, believed in 1942 that the only route to defeating Germany was the opening of a second front in France. Yet even in the Fall of 1944 Churchill and Montgomery appeared to have great influence on the strategic direction of the war.
 

4Q Basket Case

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I studied North Africa intensely when younger. (I would still like to go to Tobruk, Gazala, and Halfaya Pass, but given the security situation there, that is unlikely).
At El Alamein, the Brits outnumbered the Axis 2-1, and half the Axis troops were nearly worthless Italian troops. (A side note, FDR ordered the 1st Armored Division to hand over all of its tanks to ship them to Egypt for use by the UK 8th Army.) Victory over the Axis was not that great of an achievement. Monty was very methodical, taking one position after another and attritting the Axis until Rommel's position became untenable. Monty bragged about pushing Rommel back 2,000 km (El Alamein to Mareth, Tunisia), but for most of that, Rommel was hotfooting it to get to Tunisia because of the Torch landings in Algeria. In other words, Rommel would have made the same move if nobody was "pushing" him.
I will give Monty some credit. He made the men of the 8th Army believe in themselves and that ain't nothing. Overall he was over-rated but the best the Brits had.
TW, as a military historian. I’m nowhere near the same universe as you. So I’d like your opinion on a statement I’ve heard repeated over the years:

The Americans felt that the best way to minimize casualties was to shorten the war. So they fought more aggressively. The Brits felt the best way to minimize casualties was to fight a cautious war of attrition.

Acknowledging that that’s grossly over-simplified, does it hold any water?
 

crimsonaudio

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The Americans felt that the best way to minimize casualties was to shorten the war. So they fought more aggressively. The Brits felt the best way to minimize casualties was to fight a cautious war of attrition.

Acknowledging that that’s grossly over-simplified, does it hold any water?
TW has forgotten more about WWII, and more specifically, how and why the war was fought as it was, but I think there's some merit to this thinking. But I also think there was a fire in the US troops that came from home - not the 'stiff upper lip' of the British, but a more brash 'get this done' attitude because of how the war was supported.

Would LOVE to hear TW's perspective - great question!
 

crimsonaudio

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July 24, 1944: The weather has improved in Normandy and Operation Cobra can finally start. Early in the afternoon, three divisions of the 8th US Air Force (nearly 1,600 bombers) along with six fighter-bombers groups of the 9th TAC (Tactical Air Force) begin to bombard a narrow corridor (roughly 4 miles long by 2 miles wide) located about 2.5 miles northwest of Saint-Lo. The cloud cover is heavy which blocks the view of many pilots; 500 bombers choose to go return to base without having attacked their targets. The American forces located in the area (9th and 30th Infantry divisions) receive the order during the previous night to pull back about 1/2 mile to the northeast. Although the weather has improved, visibility is still poor and some units of the 30th Infantry division are bombarded in error - 30 American soldiers are killed and 120 are wounded. Other members of the 30th division join their positions during the night and observe the enemy movements. Brief engagements take place as the Germans of Panzer Lehr division infiltrate these positions, particularly in the area of the 60th Infantry Regiment belonging to the 9th American division, between the villages Hauts-Vents and Le Bois du Hommet, along the road of Saint-Lo to Periers. The reports of the missed bombardments alarm General Bradley - they are numerous because of the atmospheric conditions. However, he decides to maintain plans to begin Operation Cobra the following day.

The British receive the reinforcement of the 1st Canadian Army, led by General Crerar. The front has stabilized for now with no major offensives planned today. However, the British gather to the south of Caen aiming to launch a new operation, called Operation Spring.

Over France, US 9th Air Force attacks bridges, fuel dumps, transportation lines, and enemy positions with bombers and supporting fighters. RAF Bomber Command sends 113 aircraft to attack Donges overnight. RAF Bomber Command sends 36 aircraft to attack V-weapons sites during the day and 122 aircraft to attack V-weapons site at Ferfay overnight.

Over Germany, US 8th Air Force conducts sweeps over Lechfeld and Leipheim with 143 fighters. RAF Bomber Command sends 614 aircraft to attack Stuttgart overnight, with 21 lost. RAF Bomber Command sends 27 aircraft to attack Berlin overnight.

On the eastern front, Soviet forces of the 1st Belorussian Front capture Lublin - as Soviet units cross the River San north of Lublin, Poland, German troops begin evacuating that city. Elements of the 1st Ukrainian Front fully liberate the Majdanek Concentration Camp.

In Italy, US 5th Army reaches Pisa and begins regrouping for further operations. US 12th Air Force aircraft attack targets along the front in support of ground operations as well as transportation lines in the Po valley. US 15th Air Force attacks Genoa and Turin.

Pictured: A scene at an advanced American dressing station in the Saint-Lp sector on July 24, 1944, showing German wounded receiving the same level of care accorded Allied casualties.; In preparation for Operation 'Cobra' July 24, 1944 from 11.15 to 11.30 Aircraft B-17 and B-26 of the 8th Air Force United States was subjected to 'carpet' bombing of German positions on the front width of 6.5 km. Some of the bombs fell on the American position - 'friendly fire' killing and wounding American soldiers of the 30th Infantry Division.; M-29 Weasel (‘St Lo Special 1′) personnel and supply carrier of ‘C’Coy, 121st Combat Engineer Battalion, 29th US Infantry Division. Normandy. c. July 1944; A Sherman tank crosses 'Winston Bridge', a Bailey bridge built over the River Orne for the 'Goodwood' offensive, July 24, 1944

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Tidewater

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If Roosevelt, Marshall and Eisenhower did not feel that Monty was capable, it escapes me why resources would be diverted to Montgomery in such a major way, to conduct Market Garden, over impossible terrain to support such a major operation.
I think Ike and the Allies in general got cocky after chasing the Wehrmacht across France about as fast as the Germans could run. Monty's reputation rose once the breakout from Normandy happened, (even though Monty had little to do with that breakout).
By that point in time the combined American armies were threatening the Rhine and Ruhr region. Taking that a step further if Ike had stayed with the major thrust into Germany all German forces would be required to defend the homeland and thus the Ardennes offensive would likely have not occurred.
True, but a single thrust like Monty was trying even if successful, would have generated a massive German response. The Germans were not stupid and a thrust of a single arm across the Rhine that threatened the Ruhr would have meant Germans knew that they had to arrest it, or cut it off, and they would have tried. Double envelopments were more successful, except in places in which geography itself provided the second arm (e.g. what the Soviets did to Army Group North in the autumn of 1944 in Courland or the Germans tried to do with Wacht am Rhein (the Bulge). As far as I can tell, Monty was trying a single envelopment with a vague plan for what would be next. Shove British XXX Corps into a single arm, and the Germans cut that off, and Churchill might have faced a vote of no confidence in Parliament, even at that late stage (remember, the British public fired Churchill the next summer during the Potsdam conference).
The Americans, Marshall in particular, believed in 1942 that the only route to defeating Germany was the opening of a second front in France. Yet even in the Fall of 1944 Churchill and Montgomery appeared to have great influence on the strategic direction of the war.
Marshall felt that defeating Germany required occupying German industrial areas and the shortest path to that was through France. The Brits were too willing to get distracted and expend scarce resources on sideshows like the Mediterranean or Norway.
The Brits were the senior partner when America entered the war and while there was no official passing of the baton, by 1944, the bulk of Allied forces were American and the Americans became the senior partner. I would say the naming of Ike (not a Brit) to SHAEF was probably the "pass the baton" moment when America became the senior partner.
 
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Tidewater

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TW, as a military historian. I’m nowhere near the same universe as you. So I’d like your opinion on a statement I’ve heard repeated over the years:

The Americans felt that the best way to minimize casualties was to shorten the war. So they fought more aggressively. The Brits felt the best way to minimize casualties was to fight a cautious war of attrition.

Acknowledging that that’s grossly over-simplified, does it hold any water?
It holds a good bit of water.
For a really good discussion of the differing British and American strategic concepts, I would refer you to the first half of Gordon A. Harrison's Cross Channel Attack (the second half is about the D-Day landings and subsequent operations to D-30 or so).
Strategically and operationally, the culture of the U.S. military was take the direct path, smash your enemy's main strength, then the rest is easy (note, this is probably a fairly direct legacy of U.S. Grant's & Willie T. Sherman's views in the Civil War). The Brits preferred the "indirect Approach" (see B. H. Liddel-Hart's writings in the interwar period). The Brits defeated Napoleon not by landing in France and taking Napoleon on directly, but by landing in Portugal and sapping French strengthen in an Iberian sideshow. This legacy led Churchill to favor the Dardanelles in WW I and the "soft underbelly of Europe" the Mediterranean in WW II. The Americans were loathe to dissipate scarce resources like infantry divisions, landing craft and airplanes to a sideshow theater, believing that the shortest path to victory led through northern France to Germany.
Tactically, the Brits, having had massive bloodletting during WW I (to a degree the Americans did not experience and had difficulty understanding), were reluctant to take lots of casualties and this made their infantry methodical (which appeared cautious). Tactically, the Americans relied on firepower (lots of artillery and tactical air support) and in mobility to overcome the strength of the tactical defense.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I like the Italians I work with, but the Italians of Mussolini's Italy were not into it.
Italian cooking? Great. Love-making (so I'm told)? Great. War? Not so much. They haven't been worth much for the last half a millennium.
In the winter of 1940-1, 70,000 Brits in the Western Desert Force beat the snot out to 250,000 Italian troops at Sidi Barrani and chased the survivors all the way across Cyrenaica, which was why Rommel was sent to Libya in the first place.
Well, in the latter days of the Roman Empire, the bulk of the Roman Legions was made up of non-Italians...
 

TIDE-HSV

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As you are aware Italy joined the Allied powers in 1914 in the hopes of claiming new territory from Austria-Hungary. They ended up in a stalemate with much of both armies in defensive position in the frozen alps with the great hardships that entailed. They had little appetite for prolonged suffering again as did the Brits who had to be essentially forced back into another land war on the European Continent. I can well understand that.
They did gain the Südtirol and have been hard at work trying to Italianize it ever since...
 

Tidewater

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Well, in the latter days of the Roman Empire, the bulk of the Roman Legions was made up of non-Italians...
Look at the "Romani" at the battle of Chalons (A.D. 451), and you'll see Visigoths, Franks, Burgundians, Saxons. My thought was, "Where the heck are the 'Romani' fighting for the Romani? Roman citizens from what is now Spain, France, Britain, North Africa, etc.? There was no threat to Spain or North Africa. I just think civic virtue in the late empire died and the empire resorted to foreigners to do their fighting.
 

TIDE-HSV

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That’s hilarious and brilliant. I wonder if the Nazis ever caught on?
IDK. It's known that he slowed production down and also there were other acts of sabotage. There are many reasons to run low on oil in the field - holed crankcases, etc. They may never have put 2 and 2 together. Many don't know, or don't remember the origin of the word "sabotage." "Sabot" is a wooden shoe carved from a block. During the French upheavals, striking workers would throw their wooden shoes into the factory works, gumming them up, hence "Sabotage."
 

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July 25, 1944: It’s Tuesday - today is D+49, marking 7 weeks since the D-Day Invasion at Normandy and the beginning of the liberation of Europe.

Today marks the beginning of two operations; Operation Cobra (American) and Operation Spring (British).

Despite the poor weather (and the ‘friendly fire’ bombings of the day before), new Allied air raids prepare the ground for the offensive: 1,500 B-17 and B-25 bombers drop nearly 3,300 tons of bombs between Montreuil and Hebecrevon in the northwest of Saint-Lo. But once again, due to the poor atmospheric conditions and the proximity of the American forces, hundreds more are wounded or killed by the bombardments. After the bombing runs, the Panzer Lehr then comes under massed artillery fire of approximately 1,000 pieces of artillery of different calibers. The bombardments are disastrous for the German forces, which lose a tremendous amount of soldiers and vehicles during the air raid: after the bombardment the Panzer Lehr division has only 7 operational tanks left in this sector. Before the Americans even launch the ground attack (comprised of two armored divisions (238 Sherman tanks) and four infantry divisions), the Germans lose not only their armored support, but also nearly half their soldiers are killed by the bombardments.

The Americans send six divisions (over 140,000 troops) to attack between Montreuil and Hebecrevon, which strike in the following directions (from west to east): the 9th Infantry division, on the west side of the offensive, moves south towards Montreuil and must push back the counterattacks of the 2nd and 17th SS Panzer Division. The 1st infantry division attacks towards Marigny, keeping the pressure on the German paratroopers. The 3rd Armored division moves towards Cerisy-la-Salle, the 4th Infantry progresses towards Canisy. The 2nd Armoured division attacks Saint-Gilles while the troops of the 30th Infantry on the eastern side move to the south of Saint-Lo, attacking the 352nd Infantry division and the 2nd Parachutist Regiment. By the evening of July 25, the front line has moved by only 1.5 miles to the south. The American generals, and in particular Bradley, worry about this lack of progress but the German prisoners imply that they are still shocked by the scale of the bombardments. The Americans decide to ‘go all out’ in the bombardments the next day.

Above France, in support of Operation Cobra, US 9th Air Force opens air attacks against German ground positions around St Lo with eight fighter groups. Immediately following 9th ** fighters, US 8th Air Force attacks German ground positions around St Lo with 1,503 bombers. US 9th Air Force then attacks German ground positions around St Lo with seven fighter groups followed by attacks by 580 bombers.

To the east of the Americans, the British launch Operation Spring, to the south of Caen. This offensive, mainly carried out by the Canadian Black Watch Regiment, intends to keep the Germans in contact with the British instead of sending reinforcements to fight the American offensive. This attack, which does not make much progress on the front, takes on extremely heavy in losses - the Germans dug themselves in after Operation Goodwood and the Canadians are punished by units firmly entrenched in their positions. The British losses are terrible: nearly 1,500 casualties. However, Operation Spring is a success in that the Germans choose not to send reinforcements to the west.

Seven weeks after the landing on D-Day, the combination of Operations Cobra and Spring are about to change the face of the western front…

In the skies above Germany, US 15th Air Force attacks Linz, Villach, and other targets with 420 bombers. RAF Bomber Command sends 550 aircraft to attack Stuttgart overnight (12 lost), 135 aircraft to attack Wanne-Eickel overnight, 21 aircraft to attack Berlin overnight, and 15 aircraft to attack Mannheim overnight.

On the eastern front, Soviet forces penetrate Lvov and partially surround it. Soviet 2nd Shock Army attacking around Narva, German III SS Panzer Korps evacuate. Soviet 2nd Baltic Front pushing toward Daugavpils. Soviet 1st Belorussian Front attacking around Brest-Litovsk. Operation Frantic: Flying from and returning to bases in the Soviet Union, 67 US 15th Air Force fighters attack German airfield at Mielec, Poland.

In Italy, 13th Corps of British 8th Army pushing toward Florence. US 5th Army regrouping along the Arno River. US 12th Air Force aircraft attack supply depots, rail lines, bridges, and other targets as well as transportation lines in the Po valley.

Pictured: A Pz.Kpfw. V Panther Ausf. D belonging to the Panzer-Lehr-Division, after preliminary bombings in Operation Cobra, July 25, 1944; Four US Army soldiers watching Allied bombardment, Saint Lo, France, July 25, 1944; Men of the 47th Infantry Regiment walking through hedgerow country in Normandy, 25th of July, 1944; Operation Cobra map

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