75th anniversary of D-Day...

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Tidewater

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December 11, 1944: ... The last of three hundred thousand Germans who will fight in the Ardennes Offensive arrive just a few miles from the Allied front lines. By evening (using straw on the frozen and rutted roads to muffle their sound) over 2,800 new armored vehicles are assembled all along the so-called ‘Ghost Front’. The vehicles and other supplies are heavily camouflaged with fir branches and parked beneath the tall pines to avoid detection from the air. The German buildup in the Ardennes is complete. Hitler moves to a new headquarters behind the Siegfried Line, near the castle of Ziegenberg, from which he direct operations. The date for the attack is set for December 16th.

Although General Bradley (commanding general of ground forces in the sector) and General Eisenhower (Allied supreme commander) concerned about the weakness of their position in the Ardennes, they believe the Germans are too beaten down and lack sufficient manpower and supplies to launch an effective counterattack. ... Hitler holds a meeting with top German military commanders at the Adlerhorst headquarters in Wetterau, Germany, stressing the importance of the upcoming Ardennes Offensive.
If you look at the last 12th Army group sitmap (5 Dec 44, I think), the U.S. Army intel folks were still tracking forces that would be used in Wacht-am-Rhein as being elsewhere.
The 1st SS, 2nd SS, 9th SS, 10th SS, 12 SS, 9th and 116th Panzer divisions were listed as being around Aachen/Huertgen, and the 21st Panzer, Panzer Lehr were assumed to be in Lorraine when obviously, they were, by this point, in their staging areas for Wacht-am-Rhein.

There is an art to intelligence assessment. Latency matters. If you see (via captured documents, vehicle markings, talkative POWs) elements of the 2nd Panzer in the town of Schmidt on 1 December, does that mean the entire division was there or just that one element? And on December 8th, can you still assume the division is still there or have they moved on?

There is a saying in the army: every operation is either an operational success or an intel failure. If the operation works, it was because of the great planning and the courage and skill of the operators. If it failed, the intel guys screwed up. (Intel guys love that saying, by the way).
 
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UAH

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As we follow along this excellent thread by crimsonaudio one inescapable fact that is obvious in the photos and casualty reports are the miserable and life threatening conditions that every combatant faced on a daily basis. The sea of mud that would soon turn to frozen muck and the constant danger of German artillery is difficult to comprehend sitting here at the computer this morning.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Today's Air Force would be horrified.
If you start looking at the number of planes in some of these missions, you'll see that it was inevitable. No way they could have spread that many planes in one layer, and, if they did, it'd be impossible for the fighters to defend them...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Looking at the Hartheim castle, I may have mentioned before that my SIL lost an aunt and uncle, both MR, to the Nazis. They were taken away and the relatives were notified in a week or so that both had succumbed to natural causes on the same day. No bodies. No further explanation. He's about as anti-Nazi as anyone I know...
 
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Tidewater

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If you start looking at the number of planes in some of these missions, you'll see that it was inevitable. No way they could have spread that many planes in one layer, and, if they did, it'd be impossible for the fighters to defend them...
Yes, after posting that, I was thinking. Brad had posted than some bombing raids had almost 1,000 bombers. One of the recent missions had almost 800 fighters.

I just see today's USAF as extremely focused on the safety of the airplane to the exclusion of almost every other consideration. Not surprising, given how bloody expensive airplanes have become.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Yes, after posting that, I was thinking. Brad had posted than some bombing raids had almost 1,000 bombers. One of the recent missions had almost 800 fighters.

I just see today's USAF as extremely focused on the safety of the airplane to the exclusion of almost every other consideration. Not surprising, given how bloody expensive airplanes have become.
USAF Museum
 

Tidewater

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Fascinating. I know about some of this but not everything. Those bomber crews were bad a$$.
Casualty rates among the infantry on a "likelihood of being killed or wounded each month in action" basis were higher, but in 1943 and early '44, when most of the Army was preparing and training, almost the only guys putting their lives on the line each day were USAAF bomber crews and their losses were horrendous at times.
Things were better by late 1944 when fighters based in Belgium or eastern France could escort bombers to targets all over the Reich, but 1943 and early 1944 the bomber crews bore the brunt alone.
Cambridge_American_Cemetery_and_Memorial.jpg
3,809 graves in the Cambridge U.S. military cemetery. The names of 5,127 names of men whose bodies were never recovered (although this number also includes those lost in the Battle of the Atlantic).
 
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crimsonaudio

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December 12, 1944: It’s Tuesday - is D+189, marking 27 weeks (189 days) since the D-Day Invasion at Normandy and the beginning of the liberation of Europe.

Forces of the US 1st Army battle towards Mariaweiler, Hoven, Dueren, and Derichsweiler, through the Hurtgen Forest. 4th infantry Division’s 8th Infantry is detached from the 83rd Division and moves in the morning. The final elements reach Luxembourg that evening. The Combat Team is in its new assembly area by 8 PM, the 1st Battalion in the vicinity of Flaxveiler, the 2nd of Uebersyern, the 3rd of Wecker and the 29th FA Battalion in the vicinity of Flaxweiler. The 12th Infantry maintains its positions. German activity is minor except several exchanges of machine gun and mortar fires across the Moselle river. The 22nd continues active patrolling along its front.

The US 3rd Army establishes another crossing of the German frontier east of the Saar, captures the V-rocket factory at Wittring in eastern France and continues fighting around Dillengen, the Blies, Habkirchen, and Bliesbruck. To the south, in Alsace, the US 7th Army is fighting in Bettviller, Soufflenheim, and Seltz. The French 1st Army continues reducing Colmar pocket, but with less ambitious plan and without 1st Corps.

Over Germany, allied forces continue to hammer the infrastructure and targets of opportunity due to almost total air superiority. US 8th Air Force attacks Merseburg with 337 bombers, Hanau with 270 bombers, Aschaffenburg with 69 bombers, Darmstadt with 461 bombers, and other targets with 60 bombers - losing a total of four bombers and seven out of 831 fighter escorts. US 15th Air Force attacks Blechhammer. RAF Bomber Command sends 140 aircraft (escorted by Mustang fighters) to attack Witten (the only city in the Ruhr industrial area that has not been bombed yet) during the day, 540 aircraft to attack Essen overnight, and 49 aircraft to attack Osnabruck overnight.

On the eastern front, the Soviet 2nd Ukrainian Front attacks north of Budapest and the Soviet 3rd Ukrainian Front, including 46th Army transferred from 2nd Ukrainian Front, attacks south of Budapest.

In Italy, Harold Alexander is promoted to field marshal (backdated to June 4, 1944) and becomes Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theater. Troops of the British 8th Army are fighting around Fosso Vecchio canal and Naviglio canal and Brazilian troops attack Monte Della Torraca, southwest of Bologna. Elements of the British 13th Corps (US 5th Army) are under attack around Monte Cerere.

Pictured: A GI from the 9th Division talks to a German soldier captured during the Hurtgen battle, December 12, 1944.; Ernest Hemingway with Col. Charles (Buck) T. Lanaham in Germany, 1944. Hemingway, part of the 22nd, was present at the heavy fighting in the Hurtgen Forest near the end of 1944. After fighting in the Hurtgen he became ill with pneumonia.; Captured German soldiers in a holding area in the ruins of Junkersdorf, Germany, being guarded by Americans of the 39th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division on December 12, 1944.; Medics from 1st Battalion, 60th Regiment, 9th Division load a wounded American soldier into a medic half-track on December 12, 1944.

1212a.jpg

1212b.jpg

1212c.jpg

1212d.jpg
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I've seen the pic of the German with the comedian's nose many times, in this pic and others. I think that he was just a photographer's magnet. On the bombers, originally there was a myth that the B-17 didn't need escorts. Then, the Luftwaffe found that it was vulnerable to a head-on attack. We finally got our nose so bloodied at Schweifurt that there was, in effect, a stand-down on daytime bombing until fighter escorts could accompany them...
 
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UAH

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Casualty rates among the infantry on a "likelihood of being killed or wounded each month in action" basis were higher, but in 1943 and early '44, when most of the Army was preparing and training, almost the only guys putting their lives on the line each day were USAAF bomber crews and their losses were horrendous at times.
Things were better by late 1944 when fighters based in Belgium or eastern France could escort bombers to targets all over the Reich, but 1943 and early 1944 the bomber crews bore the brunt alone.
View attachment 5137
3,809 graves in the Cambridge U.S. military cemetery. The names of 5,127 names of men whose bodies were never recovered (although this number also includes those lost in the Battle of the Atlantic).
Some years ago I read a book documenting the fighter/bomber crews when they moved to fields in France. We always imagine that the fighter jocks had it easy compared to the grunts in the fox holes but in actual fact the hardships and losses they faced with multiple sorties per day or on bomber support missions were incredible. Recently I watched a thorough documentary on the Spitfire and one WW II pilot described being soaked in sweat when tangling with German fighters while flying bomber support missions. Few of us would wish to face the prospect of living in a tent in cold weather to get up at day break each day to go out with a great possibility of never making it home.
 

Tidewater

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. On the bombers, originally there was a myth that the B-17 didn't need escorts. Then, the Luftwaffe found that it was vulnerable to a head-on attack. We finally got our nose so bloodied at Schweifurt that there was, in effect, a stand-down on daytime bombing until fighter escorts could accompany them...
this is conjecture on my part, but I would wager that the “B-17s don’t need escorts” statement was due to the fact that we did not have fighters to escort them all the way to Germany in 1943 and the USAAF wanted nevertheless to get U.S. bombers into the fight.
i would imagine that, behind closed doors, the wing commanders said words to the effect, “You think B-17s don’t need escorts? Fine. You lead the next raid on Schweinfurt.”
 
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Tidewater

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I've seen the pic of the German with the comedian's nose many times, in this pic and others. I think that he was just a photographer's magnet. On the bombers, originally there was a myth that the B-17 didn't need escorts. Then, the Luftwaffe found that it was vulnerable to a head-on attack. We finally got our nose so bloodied at Schweifurt that there was, in effect, a stand-down on daytime bombing until fighter escorts could accompany them...
I went back and looked up how bad the second Schweinfurt raid (October 1943) was. Of 291 bombers, 60 were shot down. 17 were so badly damaged that they had to be scrapped, and 121 damaged, but repairable.
That was simply not sustainable.
Thereafter, deep raids into Germany were suspended until February 1944.
 
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gman4tide

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Some of the (wrong) thinking came from the "box" formations they flew in, along with the 10 browning guns each had...they thought they could throw up a wall of lead to protect themselves. Kinda like the iraqi's did with their air defenses...they thought wrong.
 

Tidewater

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Some of the (wrong) thinking came from the "box" formations they flew in, along with the 10 browning guns each had...they thought they could throw up a wall of lead to protect themselves. Kinda like the iraqi's did with their air defenses...they thought wrong.
I wonder how much friendly fire they had using that box formation. If you are slinging .50 lead around, some of those rounds are going to hit friendly airplanes, and maybe friendly air crewmembers.
 
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