75th anniversary of D-Day...

TIDE-HSV · Nov 11, 2019

Tidewater said:
I will freely confess the light infantryman's preference for close terrain. The tough bit for the infantry, any infantry, is the last 300 meters. Look at the background of the photos Brad has posted and you can see only about 150 meters, so for half that distance attacking infantry is concealed by forest. Of course that cuts both ways, counterattacking German forces are also concealed until they are close t defending American troops.
What I think really made the Hürtgen bad for the American troops was the German troop density.
Take a gander at the SitMap for 12 Nov 1944. The sector I had suggested (Bitburg-Trier, along the northern bank of the Moselle), a stretch of front of about 30 km, contained the one German division, the 353rd Infantry Division.
View attachment 4845
The sector between Eschweiler and Heimbach, where the Hürtgen fighting was going on, also around 30 km, contained five Germany infantry divisions, a Panzer brigade, and Panzer division (the 116th). In other words (assuming the divisions in both sectors held around the same strength), around seven times the defensive forces.
View attachment 4846
Stick your nose into that sector, and get ready for a bloody nose. Looking back, soldiers will remember the hills as being a steeper, the forest denser. The terrain, however, did not kill all those American soldiers. German soldiers did and there were a lot of them in the Hürtgen Forest.

I will go to Hürtgen during my next trip to Belgium and see for myself. I'll take photos and post them here.

During my last trip to the Ardennes, I found the foxholes used by Easy Company (2-506 PIR) outside Foy. They were inside the woods (concealed from German observation), but close enough to the edge of the woods that they could see into the fields between the wood line and Foy (and shoot any Germans advancing across those fields). Using OCOKA, Easy company had excellent Observation and fields of fire, great Cover and concealment, no Obstacles to speak of, they held the Key terrain (the ridge overlooking Foy) and very good Avenues of Approach (the road leading to and from the sector from the rear).

The problem is that, of the infantry who've gone on record and who've served both in the open and in the Hürtgen basically say "anywhere but there." One major complaint was that the Germans knew where the Americans were, mostly, but the reverse was not true because of the peculiar topography of the forest. The Germans caused some out and out routs of American troops by proving to them that they knew exactly where their foxholes were by doing rolling artillery barrages marching right down the trenches.

Dawn on Monday laid bare the American plight. Panzer drumfire from Schmidt soon reduced nine Shermans to six, and nine tank destroyers to three. GIs unable to leave their flooded rifle pits, described as “artesian wells,” were once again reduced to defecating in empty C-ration cans. Those gimlet-eyed German observers on Hill 400 lobbed 20 artillery rounds or more onto each position, shifting guns hole by hole by hole; sobbing men waited in terror as the footfall drew closer.

I would urge a complete reading of Atkinson's account for a full understanding of the conditions in the Hürtgen...

Atkinson

crimsonaudio · Nov 12, 2019

November 12, 1944: For the next three days the ground troops and their commanders anxiously scan the skies for a break in the bad weather, but no perceptible change appears in the overcast. The troops of US 1st Army can only hope for a break in the weather pattern so that full brunt of the attack will not fall on the ground forces, as by Thursday (November 16), the ground troops are to attack - air support or not.

Even in the Green Hell of the Battle of Hurtgen Forest, the character of good men is apparent - early in the morning, a wounded American can be heard calling from the middle of a German minefield, in a no man's land separating the combatants. "Help me" the man cries. However, his unit has withdraw and no U.S. troops are close enough to hear. German LT Friedrich Lengfeld orders his men not to shoot if Americans come to rescue the man. But none come and the soldiers weakening voice is heard for hours. "Help me" he called, again and again. At about 10:30 that morning, Lengfeld can bear the cries no longer. He forms a rescue squad, complete with Red Cross vests and flags, and leads his men toward the wounded American, but he never makes it. Approaching the soldier, he steps on a land mine, and the exploding metal fragments tear deeply into his body. Eight hours later Lengfeld is dead.

US 3rd Army continues to work to encircle Metz while US 7th Army is attacking around Raon-l'Etape and Corcieux.

On the eastern front, the Bulgarian 1st Army captures Kumanovo.

In Occupied Norway, Operation Catechism is underway - 31 British Lancaster bombers attack German battleship Tirpitz, anchor in Tromsofiord, with Tallboy (12,000 pound) bombs, scoring three hits and several near misses which, combined, cause the ship to capsize. A total of 971 German sailors (of the 1,700 on board) are killed in the attack. The planes are from No. 9 and No. 617 Squadrons, none of the Lancaster bombers were lost. Offshore, British Royal Navy cruisers and destroyers attack a German coastal convoy.

Over Italy, British 8th Army attacks across the Montone River, while Allied bombers attack the Brenner Pass railway. US 12th Air Force fighters provide ground support and attack transportation targets in the Po valley in limited operations due to poor weather conditions and US 15th Air Force attacks transportation targets in northern Italy with 107 bombers. Kriegsmarine vessel KT-35 is sunk at Genoa by Allied aircraft and Kriegsmarine vessel KT-36 is attacked by Allied aircraft and run aground. US Navy destroyer Woolsey bombards German positions around San Remo

Pictured: Litterbearers carrying an injured soldier to a medical station, November 12, 1944.; The plaque on the monument erected for LT Friedrich Lengfeld.; Recruiting office of the Waffen SS in Calais, after its liberation by Allied forces, November 12, 1944.; Tirpitz under attack while at anchor at Håkøya Island near Tromsø, Norway on November 12, 1944. Tirpitz, to the right of the bomb splashes, can be seen firing a salvo from her forward turrets. Only a portion of the ship is visible through the smoke. Tirpitz finally rolled over after receiving three direct hits from Tallboy bombs.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 12, 2019

That phrase "German coastal convoy" caught my eye. By now, they'd lost the coasts of France, north and south, plus Belgium and the Netherlands. They still had the Baltic Coast and Norway, so I guess one of those...

TIDE-HSV · Nov 12, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
The problem is that, of the infantry who've gone on record and who've served both in the open and in the Hürtgen basically say "anywhere but there." One major complaint was that the Germans knew where the Americans were, mostly, but the reverse was not true because of the peculiar topography of the forest. The Germans caused some out and out routs of American troops by proving to them that they knew exactly where their foxholes were by doing rolling artillery barrages marching right down the trenches.

I would urge a complete reading of Atkinson's account for a full understanding of the conditions in the Hürtgen...

Atkinson

I'll be very interested in your firsthand assessment of the Hürtgen. From reading the accounts and looking at the topos, it seems unique in the advantage the ridges give, beyond the normal plus of holding the high ground...

Tidewater · Nov 12, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 12, 1944: ... Recruiting office of the Waffen SS in Calais, after its liberation by Allied forces, November 12, 1944.

View attachment 4863

The last unit defending the Reichstag in 1945 was the remnants of the SS Charlemagne Division, the French SS division. Ironic that Frenchmen (probably some recruited in the Calais office) were defending the Reichstag against Russians.

gman4tide · Nov 12, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 12, 1944: Even in the Green Hell of the Battle of Hurtgen Forest, the character of good men is apparent - early in the morning, a wounded American can be heard calling from the middle of a German minefield, in a no man's land separating the combatants. "Help me" the man cries. However, his unit has withdraw and no U.S. troops are close enough to hear. German LT Friedrich Lengfeld orders his men not to shoot if Americans come to rescue the man. But none come and the soldiers weakening voice is heard for hours. "Help me" he called, again and again. At about 10:30 that morning, Lengfeld can bear the cries no longer. He forms a rescue squad, complete with Red Cross vests and flags, and leads his men toward the wounded American, but he never makes it. Approaching the soldier, he steps on a land mine, and the exploding metal fragments tear deeply into his body. Eight hours later Lengfeld is dead.

In the end, we're all human...

Tidewater · Nov 12, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 12, 1944: ... early in the morning, a wounded American can be heard calling from the middle of a German minefield, in a no man's land separating the combatants. "Help me" the man cries. However, his unit has withdraw and no U.S. troops are close enough to hear. German LT Friedrich Lengfeld orders his men not to shoot if Americans come to rescue the man. But none come and the soldiers weakening voice is heard for hours. "Help me" he called, again and again. At about 10:30 that morning, Lengfeld can bear the cries no longer. He forms a rescue squad, complete with Red Cross vests and flags, and leads his men toward the wounded American, but he never makes it. Approaching the soldier, he steps on a land mine, and the exploding metal fragments tear deeply into his body. Eight hours later Lengfeld is dead.

Pictured: The plaque on the monument erected for LT Friedrich Lengfeld.

View attachment 4862

Reminds me of Richard Kirkland, Company G, 2nd South Carolina at the battle of Fredericksburg. He got out of his protected position and went forward to give water to wounded Union soldiers.

1280px-Richard_Rowland_Kirkland_Monument_in_the_Fredericksburg_and_Spotsylvania_National_Militar.jpg

Kirkland wasn't killed at Fredericksburg, however. He lived on the next September and was killed at Chickamauga.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 12, 2019

Tidewater said:
The last unit defending the Reichstag in 1945 was the remnants of the SS Charlemagne Division, the French SS division. Ironic that Frenchmen (probably some recruited in the Calais office) were defending the Reichstag against Russians.

Wonder what life was like back in France after the war...

Tidewater · Nov 12, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
Wonder what life was like back in France after the war...

I'm not sure, but I don't think many of the defenders of the Reichstag survived or, if they did survive, lived very long.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 12, 2019

Tidewater said:
I'm not sure, but I don't think many of the defenders of the Reichstag survived or, if they did survive, lived very long.

You have a point. Probably few to none of the Reichstag defenders ever made it back to France. I really was thinking more of Waffen SS vets who didn't get caught up in the Soviet advance and did make it back to France. They shaved the heads of female collaborators. Well, I stopped in mid-post to do a little research and ran across this. The lead photo is the same one from Calais...

Vintage News

Tidewater · Nov 12, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
You have a point. Probably few to none of the Reichstag defenders ever made it back to France. I really was thinking more of Waffen SS vets who didn't get caught up in the Soviet advance and did make it back to France. They shaved the heads of female collaborators. Well, I stopped in mid-post to do a little research and ran across this. The lead photo is the same one from Calais...

Vintage News

This is very French: "the lesser officers were ... given the opportunity to join the Foreign Legion."

TIDE-HSV · Nov 13, 2019

Tidewater said:
This is very French: "the lesser officers were ... given the opportunity to join the Foreign Legion."

I noted that as well, in effect, lifetime exile from the homeland...

crimsonaudio · Nov 13, 2019

November 13, 1944: Elements of US 3rd Army have crossed the Moselle River north of Thionville and constructed a bridge at Cattenom. South of Metz, other elements from US 12th Corps are attacking toward Morhange and Falquemont. To the south, German forces withdraw from St. Die under pressure from forces of the US 7th Army.

The bloody battle for the Hurtgen continues, with little success for the Americans - as of today, all the officers in the rifle companies of the oldest Division in the US Army, the 28th Infantry Division, have been killed or wounded (most of them are within a year of their twentieth birthday). Overall in the Hurtgen, the 28th suffers 6,184 combat casualties, plus 738 cases of trench foot and 620 battle fatigue cases. These figures mean that virtually every front-line soldier is a casualty. The 28th Division has essentially been wiped out.

However, Generals Bradley and Hodges remain determined to take the Hurtgen Forest. Having eliminated the 28th Division, they send in the 4th Infantry Division. This division led the way onto Utah Beach on June 6th, and had been through many battles since. Not many D-Day veterans are still with the division - most are dead or badly wounded by now. Here in the Hürtgen Forest, the 4th Infantry Division is asked to pour out its lifeblood again. Between November 7 and December 3, the 4th Division loses over 7000 men (about ten per company per day). "Replacements flowed in to compensate for the losses but the Hurtgen’s voracious appetite for casualties was greater than the army's ability to provide new troops." Lieutenant Wilson recorded his company's losses at 167 percent for enlisted men. "We had started with a full company of about 162 men and had lost about 287." Sgt. Mack Morris was there with the 4th and reported: "Hurtgen had its fire-breaks, only wide enough to allow two jeeps to pass, and they were mined and interdicted by machine-gun fire. There was a mine every eight paces for three miles. Hurtgen's roads were blocked. The Germans cut roadblocks from trees. They cut them down so they interlocked as they fell. Then they mined and booby trapped them. Finally they registered their artillery on them, and the mortars, and at the sound of men clearing them, they opened fire."

In the English Channel, German submarine U-978 sinks 3 Liberty ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship).

On the eastern front, German forces withdraw as Bulgarian 1st Army advances and captures Skopje.

In Italy, British 8th Army is attacking around Monte Poggiolo and San Varano and US 5th Army captures Monte San Bartolo. US 12th Air Force aircraft provide ground support and attack transportation targets in the Po valley in limited operations due to poor weather conditions.

Pictured: US half-track, camouflaged with foliage, towing an anti-aircraft (AA) gun in the Hurtgen Forrest, November 13, 1944. As the Allies enjoyed near-total air superiority, AA crews were brought in to use their powerful guns against German infantry.; Soldiers of the 461st Antiaircraft Battalion fire a 40mm Bofors, mid-November, 1944.; Two GI’s inspect a German machine gun position - around the tunneled outpost are 2 MG42’s, field radio and telephone, rifles, helmets, ammunition, and multiple grenades, November 13, 1944.; A squad leader looks for German movements in the valley 200 yards away. Snow, rain and mud make life miserable for the front line troops of Company F, 2nd Battalion, 442nd Regimental Combat Team, November 13, 1944.

Tidewater · Nov 13, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 13, 1944: ... Two GI’s inspect a German machine gun position - around the tunneled outpost are 2 MG42’s, field radio and telephone, rifles, helmets, ammunition, and multiple grenades, November 13, 1944.
View attachment 4869

Two things struck me about that photo.
Note how the German MG42s are firing, not directly forward at an American advancing force (I think this photo was taken from the rear of the German position looking toward American lines across the field in the background), but at oblique angles. The idea is interlocking fields of fire. You want to shoot advancing American infantry in the ear.
I don't think that is a tunnel. It is overhead cover (for artillery firing with PD Quick fuses). The occupants needed overhead cover thick enough to protect them from shrapnel.

Tidewater · Nov 13, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 13, 1944: ... A squad leader looks for German movements in the valley 200 yards away. Snow, rain and mud make life miserable for the front line troops of Company F, 2nd Battalion, 442nd Regimental Combat Team, November 13, 1944.

View attachment 4870

I thought the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was still in Italy at this time.
Was (future Senator) Inouye wounded in Italy?

TIDE-HSV · Nov 13, 2019

Tidewater said:
I thought the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was still in Italy at this time.
Was (future Senator) Inouye wounded in Italy?

I believe you're correct...

crimsonaudio · Nov 13, 2019

Tidewater said:
I thought the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was still in Italy at this time.
Was (future Senator) Inouye wounded in Italy?

You'll have to take it up with the owners of the photo:
"Original caption: St. Die Area, France. A squad leader looks for German movements in the valley 200 yards away. Snow, rain and mud make life miserable for these Japanese-American front line troops. Company "F", 2nd Battalion, 442nd Regiment (Combat Team). 13 Nov 1944."

https://ddr.densho.org/ddr-densho-114-4/

TIDE-HSV · Nov 13, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
You'll have to take it up with the owners of the photo:
"Original caption: St. Die Area, France. A squad leader looks for German movements in the valley 200 yards away. Snow, rain and mud make life miserable for these Japanese-American front line troops. Company "F", 2nd Battalion, 442nd Regiment (Combat Team). 13 Nov 1944."

https://ddr.densho.org/ddr-densho-114-4/

He certainly looks like he belongs with the 442nd. This is from the Densho page:

In August 1944 the Anti-Tank Company was separated and sent to France in a glider landing to support the Allied invasion of the Continent. In winter 1944, the 442nd fought German troops in France adjacent to the border with Germany; Hitler had ordered his troops to defend the area at all cost.

crimsonaudio · Nov 14, 2019

November 14, 1944: It’s Tuesday - today marks 23 weeks (161 days) since the D-Day Invasion in Normandy and the beginning of the liberation of Europe.

In the Hurtgen, the 8th Division is transferred to the V Corps and ordered (along with 2nd Ranger Battalion) to relieve what was left of the shattered 28th Division (which had relieved the 9th Division just two weeks earlier). The 2nd Ranger Battalion, having been a vital part of D-Day, has yet to set foot in Germany, so as they cross the border for the first time (after receiving orders to relieve the battered 2nd Battalion of the 28th Infantry Division), what they see in Vossenack shocks them - there are dead men and animals everywhere in the shattered village. As the Germans spot the changeover, they welcome the Rangers with a heavy barrage, missing the Rangers but hammering the departing 28th Infantry Division. It turns into a massacre and the Ranger medics scramble to save as many men as possible.

The British 12th Corps (part of British 2nd Army) launches attacks to eliminate German positions west of the Maas River around Nederweert, near Venlo. On the right flank of the Allied line, the French 1st Army launches attacks on Belfort. General De Lattres's Free French troops launched a snow-bound attack against Belfort, France. To the north, US 95th Division started capturing forts around Metz, France. US 7th Army attacks around Leintrey, Ste Pole, and Ancerviller.

On the eastern front, the Soviet 2nd Ukrainian Front is ordered to encircle Budapest from the north. The 46th Army of Soviet 2nd Ukrainian Front unsuccessfully attacks across the Danube south of Budapest.

In Italy, British 8th Army continues pushing across the Montone River toward the Samoggia River and the US 12th Air Force manages to get 17 fighters into action in adverse weather conditions.

Pictured: A farmhouse on the main route through Hurtgen served as shelter for the HQ CO. of the 121t IR/8th ID. It became known as the "Hurtgen Hotel”, November 14, 1944.; Captured German pillbox in the Hurtgen Forest - note the amount of damage it took to breach the pillbox.; US Army Sergeant Joseph H. Kadlec delivering Christmas packages sent from home, near Aachen, November 14, 1944.; Tuesday, November 14th, 1944 : The 2nd French Armored Division liberates the towns of Halloville and Nonhigny (Eastern France).

Tidewater · Nov 14, 2019

crimsonaudio said:
November 14, 1944: It’s Tuesday -
Pictured: Captured German pillbox in the Hurtgen Forest - note the amount of damage it took to breach the pillbox.;
View attachment 4873

The bunker has been hit, but I'm not sure even that damage (which is extensive) breached the bunker. Normally a bunker that tough needs a grenade or a satchel charge thrown into the aperture. That turns the toughness of the bunker into a liability because those concrete walls "tamp" the explosion and make it more lethal for troops inside the bunker.

75th anniversary of D-Day...

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