Personal Finance Advice for Roth and 401k

Jessica4Bama

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I have had a mutual fund account with Morgan Stanley since I was a senior in high school. I opened up a Roth IRA several years ago and was putting about $400 a month into it up until August 2017 when I quit my job to finish my degree. Now that I’m done with school, I need to figure out what I need to do from here. My new employer will match my contributions after one year of employment, but they use fidelity. I’m going to talk with my advisor at Morgan Stanley but I was hoping for some advice here.

Do you recommend me starting back contributing to my Roth IRA with Morgan Stanley or open up an account with my employer? I don’t think I will be able to contribute to both, but I don’t know which would be best to maximize my money.

This is what my benefits package says, so I’ll include that because I’m not sure what all it means:

In addition to the basic contribution, the employer will contribute a matching contribution which is an amount equal to 50% of the first 5% of an eligible employees voluntary contribution (this is the 401k option)

The Roth option they offer doesn’t say much other than contributions are made with after tax dollars/no income limitation to participate like with the Roth option
 

Jessica4Bama

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I had planned on doing that but I have a lot of money in my Morgan Stanley accounts. What do I do with that? Just keep it open and don’t put any money into it? I can’t afford to contribute to both.
 

92tide

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I had planned on doing that but I have a lot of money in my Morgan Stanley accounts. What do I do with that? Just keep it open and don’t put any money into it? I can’t afford to contribute to both.
i think you can just stop contributing to it and let it grow on it's own. for a long time i had an account from an earlier employer that i just left with the mgt company (vanguard, i think) while i participated in the new one.
 

Jessica4Bama

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Okay. Thank you for the advice. That's probably what I will do. I'll find out more about it when I start orientation.

What about if I was going to do travel nursing and probably wouldn't be with this employer but for 3-4 years? Still open up one where they match and then go from there if I decide to leave and do travel nursing?
 

4Q Basket Case

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Contribute as much as you possibly can. At a very minimum, the 5% for the match, but you can contribute up to $19K in 2019, and that number periodically increases over time.

If you can do it, I'd lean slightly toward the Roth 401k, if your employer offers that option. It's a bit of a guessing game because nobody knows what kind of tax policy we'll have in 5 years, let alone 30+ years from now. But I'd be real surprised if tax rates that far out are lower than they are today.

If that's right, the Roth is your best option -- your Roth contributions are net of less tax less today than distributions from a non-Roth would be when you take them in retirement. If it's not, you're really not out all that much, and it's nice to have your distributions be tax free.

Full disclosure: Mrs. Basket Case and I hedged our bets -- some of our contributions were in after-tax dollars (i.e., Roth) and some were regular (i.e., pre-tax dollars contributed, and pay tax on the distributions when they happen).

One possible option: Contribute the 5% into the 401k, and put other discretionary dollars into the Roth IRA at MS.

One risk management thing to consider -- 401k balances are 100% for sure off limits to creditors in bankruptcy -- SCOTUS ruling a few years ago. IRAs are less clear, though recent cases point toward them being off limits as well. There is no such uncertainty regarding 401ks.

Additionally, you can often borrow from your 401k (depends on whether your employer's plan allows that), but you can't do that in an IRA. And if you try to pledge your IRA against a loan, the IRS looks at that as a distribution. Which means it's subject to taxation and penalties associated with early distribution.

But all that is fine points in the noise, and far less important than what you're already doing -- you're planning for your future, and that alone puts you ahead of most 40-50 year olds, and virtually everybody under 30. Way to get out there and take control of your own destiny!
 
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Jessica4Bama

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Thank you! There wasn't much info in my benefits booklet they sent me. But it doesn't say anything on the Roth IRA about them matching my contributions. Does that normally only apply to 401k's or does it happen with Roth's as well?
Also, here is what the benefit booklet says. I'm not sure what all this means. How much would they match say if I put in $10,000? I don't really know how to do the math here. This is just an example. I just want to see how to do the math.

Screen Shot 2019-06-09 at 6.20.47 PM.jpg

 
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GrayTide

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Contribute as much as you possibly can. At a very minimum, the 5% for the match, but you can contribute up to $19K in 2019, and that number periodically increases over time.

If you can do it, I'd lean slightly toward the Roth 401k, if your employer offers that option. It's a bit of a guessing game because nobody knows what kind of tax policy we'll have in 5 years, let alone 30+ years from now. But I'd be real surprised if tax rates that far out are lower than they are today.

If that's right, the Roth is your best option -- your Roth contributions are net of less tax less today than distributions from a non-Roth would be when you take them in retirement. If it's not, you're really not out all that much, and it's nice to have your distributions be tax free.

Full disclosure: Mrs. Basket Case and I hedged our bets -- some of our contributions were in after-tax dollars (i.e., Roth) and some were regular (i.e., pre-tax dollars contributed, and pay tax on the distributions when they happen).

One possible option: Contribute the 5% into the 401k, and put other discretionary dollars into the Roth IRA at MS.

One risk management thing to consider -- 401k balances are 100% for sure off limits to creditors in bankruptcy -- SCOTUS ruling a few years ago. IRAs are less clear, though recent cases point toward them being off limits as well. There is no such uncertainty regarding 401ks.

Additionally, you can often borrow from your 401k (depends on whether your employer's plan allows that), but you can't do that in an IRA. And if you try to pledge your IRA against a loan, the IRS looks at that as a distribution. Which means it's subject to taxation and penalties associated with early distribution.

But all that is fine points in the noise, and far less important than what you're already doing -- you're planning for your future, and that alone puts you ahead of most 40-50 year olds, and virtually everybody under 30. Way to get out there and take control of your own destiny!
Jessica, I believe 4Q's advice to be spot on. The one thing to remember is that a 401K match is not guaranteed, it depends on, in most cases, the company's financial performance. You are young and have a long time to prepare for your retirement, that is the best news. Good luck.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Jessica, I believe 4Q's advice to be spot on. The one thing to remember is that a 401K match is not guaranteed, it depends on, in most cases, the company's financial performance. You are young and have a long time to prepare for your retirement, that is the best news. Good luck.
GrayTide makes a great point.

While you’re young, time is your most valuable, and simultaneously your most perishable, asset.

The younger you start investing, the louder your 60-year-old self will sing the praises os your 30-year-Old self.

Time is on your side.....today. But versus a lifetime, it's there for only a fleeting moment. Do not [waste] this opportunity away....you will never get a better chance.
 
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BamaNation

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4Q & GT with some very good insights.

At the risk of perturbing financial advisers, you should consider moving all your old Morgan Stanley accounts to whichever provider (Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard are typically considered the best/cheapest) you choose. Fidelity is probably easiest since that's where you new funds will be. What you want to avoid is ridiculously high AUM fees that don't do anything for you. Basically you tell fidelity you want to move your funds from MS to Fidelity and let them handle telling your FA that you no longer need their services. (DO NOT tell MS that you're considering doing this. Just do it through your new provider!)

If you stick with following a 3 or 4-fund plan based on what I posted earlier in the year (following the "Bogleheads" 3-fund method) then you have no use for any advisers. If you think you need an advisor, then move your Roths to Vanguard and use their PAS service at 0.3% AUM. You can drop them with no hassle at any point.

Max out all your pre-tax accounts if you can. If you can, AT A MINIMUM contribute up to whatever your employer will match. This is free money!

I think I posted this in my detailed financial planning post earlier this year, but even so, it's worth reposting. Read it: https://www.etf.com/docs/IfYouCan.pdf

The Financial Resources page I put together has a link to IRAHelp.com which the WSJ calls the best site for IRA advice. Might be useful to get some questions answered.

Obviously, there are a LOT of options for you. Keep it simple and stick with what works and you'll "get rich slowly" (what the article above is about) :)
 
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Crimson1967

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BamaNation

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You might also read / listen to this recent podcast from White Coat Investor interviewing Rick Ferri. I read anything Ferri writes because he's very compelling given his background as a broker who went through a conversion to founding his own firm and promoting (mostly) passive investing and he's written some very influential (and actionable) books on asset allocation and ETFs (among other topics). WCI is a doctor who is generally focused on helping doctors with their finances (or any other High Net Worth folks) but he always has GREAT insights into some of the foundational Bogleheads principles.

Read/listen: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/rick-ferri-podcast-109/
 
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4Q Basket Case

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Thank you! There wasn't much info in my benefits booklet they sent me. But it doesn't say anything on the Roth IRA about them matching my contributions. Does that normally only apply to 401k's or does it happen with Roth's as well?
Also, here is what the benefit booklet says. I'm not sure what all this means. How much would they match say if I put in $10,000? I don't really know how to do the math here. This is just an example. I just want to see how to do the math.

View attachment 3697

Your questions are common and valid. And I agree that the information in the screen shot isn't presented terribly clearly. So I'll give you my interpretation, but you need to consult with your HR department for a final ruling. I promise, they get those questions all the time and are used to answering them.

A few things to start:
First, your company offers a choice between a traditional 401k and a Roth 401k. That's a good thing. It's also separate and apart from the Roth IRA you have at Morgan Stanley -- two totally different things.

Second, my reading of the second sentence under Employer Match is that your company unfortunately doesn't match your contributions up to 5% of your salary. They match 50% of your contributions to the extent of 5% of your salary. Effectively, a cap on the match of 2.5% of your salary. That's still good. You get 7.5% in your account, but only have to contribute 5%. That's a 50% return on that portion of your contributions. While it's not as good as a 100% match, it's still way better than you can get anywhere else out on your own.

Third, the information doesn't explicitly say that the match applies to the Roth 401k option. I'd have to think it probably does, but you need to verify that with your HR department.

The answer to your question about what happens if you contribute $10,000 depends on your salary.

Let's say your salary is $75K a year, and that you contribute $10K into the 401K the first year you're eligible.

5% of your $75K salary is $3,750. Your company matches that at 50% -- or $1,875. Plus, you're contributing an additional $6,250 that isn't getting matched (the difference between $10,000 total you're putting and the $3,750 that is getting matched).

So you end up with a grand total contributed into your account of:

$3,750 the part of your $10K contribution that's eligible for your company match, plus
$1,875 the dollar amount that your company puts in as your match, plus
$6,250 that you contribute on top of what is being matched
$11,875 Grand Total Contributions

Obviously, you'd need to adjust those numbers to reflect your actual salary.

A few additional thoughts:
1. I hear a lot of young people (and some older ones) say that they've "maxed out" their 401k contributions when they do enough to get the full company match. Unless their salary is well over $250K, that's garbage. You're not "maxed out" until you're contributing the maximum the IRS allows -- in 2019 that's $19K, and $25K if you're over 50.

Admittedly, that's not easy to do. Here's how Mrs. Basket Case and I did it: We started out contributing all we could. On top of that, we effectively didn't get a raise for several years. What I mean is that every time we got a raise, we increased our 401k contribution by the amount of the raise. We did that for about 6-7 years, and finally got there. It was a pain for a while, but soon enough it was built into our lifestyle, and largely painless. The reward at the end of that time -- a really nice start on a retirement nest egg -- was incredibly gratifying.

2. Use debt wisely. Borrow as little as you possibly can to buy depreciating assets (like a car). Buy used. Don't ever borrow to fund experiences -- vacations, concert tickets, dinners out, etc. If you put that stuff on a credit card to get miles or bonus rewards, be sure to pay it off every month -- if you can't do that, you can't afford whatever it is. The first time you have a credit card bill made up of experiences, and you can't pay it off in full, that should be a big, loud, whanging wake-up call.

If you borrow to buy a house (and almost nobody can pay cash for their first one), have the payment on a 15-year schedule, not 30. Later, if you upgrade your house, keep the payment on the original schedule. Example: say you buy your first house and have the 15-year schedule. Three years later, you upgrade to a nicer house. Your payment schedule on the new house is 12 years. Three years later, you upgrade again. That mortgage is on a 9-year schedule. The idea is to have whatever house you're in at the time debt-free 15 years after your first purchase.

I don't agree with Dave Ramsey on everything, but he's got the debt thing right. Live like nobody else for a while, so you can live like nobody else forever afterward.

3. Ignore jackasses braying at social gatherings about their new cars, their vacations, their house, whatever. Almost invariably, they're selling their souls to impress you. Be far more concerned with impressing yourself than bragging to others. You'll be amazed how often those same public braggarts come to you in private, after the party's over, asking for advice on their impossible financial situation....in other words, you're actually impressing them far more than they want the world to know.

4. Don't confuse gambling with investing. Never have more than 10% of your portfolio in any one investment. Diversify, diversify, diversify.

5A. The most important thing: Start young, as you already have. Keep it up. For you, time is your most valuable asset. But it is also your most perishable. People that spend everything they can while young wake up at about age 40-45 and realize that they're in deep trouble, with nowhere near enough time to work themselves out of it.

5B. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but while you're young, recessions are actually your friend. You keep on keeping on with your investments, buying stocks while they're down. Later, when the recession lifts and the stock markets come back (and they always do), this is where you really make hay on the stuff you bought cheap while everybody else was scared and not investing at all. During a recession, turn off the TV news, keep your head about you, and keep on investing. This doesn't hold if you're 5 years or less out from retirement, but at your age it definitely does.

Yes, it's hard. And it takes between 7 and 10 years to really start seeing the rewards. I liken it to starting a bike ride in 21st gear. It's hard, and you're putting out a lot of effort, and not getting much of anywhere early on, and it sure would be easier to just get off the [stupid] thing. But gradually it gets easier and easier until finally you're cruising along at a pretty sporty clip.

It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is. And the financial and emotional rewards in the end are just incredible. OK, off the soapbox.
 
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BamaNation

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GrayTide

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Just an FYI, if you move your Morgan Stanley account, which I think you said was a Roth IRA, to avoid any confusion or possible tax consequences it would best to let the new IRA custodian initiate and handle the transfer from Morgan Stanley. This is normally handled through your employer's HR department.
 

BamaNation

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Just an FYI, if you move your Morgan Stanley account, which I think you said was a Roth IRA, to avoid any confusion or possible tax consequences it would best to let the new IRA custodian initiate and handle the transfer from Morgan Stanley. This is normally handled through your employer's HR department.
Great point and one I may have not made clear. I was thinking Roth & IRA not Roth 401k or Roth IRA through an employer. THere are also options to rollover but there are definite tax consequences that should be considered before doing anything. Have the discussion with employer(s) and / or Fidelity etc before doing or committing anything so that everyone is clear on what you're wanting to do. Easiest thing may be to do nothing but you're probably paying high fees for giving into doing nothing ;)

Finally, don't succumb to paralysis from analysis! The typical inertia is keep on doing what we've always done. As 4Q states, you taking action now is awesome! Then the new inertia is to keep having it taken out of your salary, increasing your savings as you get raises, and saving more than you spend :)

I keep thinking of many other things that help me out but here are a few...

1) one thing we've tried to do is figure out (in today's dollars) how much do we need in retirement and then for every year we work, save 2 years of retirement spending. This was EXTREMELY painful in the beginning of us doing it. It may not be doable right now but should help you think about why you're actually saving money.

2) I also have applied little behavioral economic jedi mind tricks like multiplying by 20x the amount of any large purchases I have/want to make. Then I better understand the impact on my retirement savings from that one purchase. I might still make the purchase but at least I know the future impact and opportunity costs.

3) use the rule of 72 to understand the power of doubling savings through investing

4) use conservative returns in your planning (we use 4%). Average stock market return over last 100+ years is about 10%. We half that in our planning horizon.

5) Incorporating the efficient frontier concepts into your asset allocation helps you understand risk/return.

6) Keep it simple! Passive investing beats active ~90% of the time! Think long term.
 
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Bamabuzzard

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And here's a little advice (take it for what its worth) from a non-financial angle about your financial planning. Understand that the soundest financial plan can be wrecked in one unexpected life event. Don't be consumed by planning for retirement. I'm not saying don't plan for it or not make it a priority. But keep it in perspective and understand that there have been a many of people who have "done it right" only to have a life event wipe them out almost overnight (my late grandmother was a great example).

I gather from your sig that you are a Believer. Here's a passage that you may have to lean heavily on as you go through this crazy, unpredictable thing called life.

Matthew 6:25-34
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
 

BamaNation

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And here's a little advice (take it for what its worth) from a non-financial angle about your financial planning. Understand that the soundest financial plan can be wrecked in one unexpected life event. Don't be consumed by planning for retirement. I'm not saying don't plan for it or not make it a priority. But keep it in perspective and understand that there have been a many of people who have "done it right" only to have a life event wipe them out almost overnight (my late grandmother was a great example).

I gather from your sig that you are a Believer. Here's a passage that you may have to lean heavily on as you go through this crazy, unpredictable thing called life.
Good points, as well. With my students, I use the metaphor of Alice in Wonderland to explain planning ... it goes something like this: Alice came to a fork in the road and didn't know which road to take. She met the Cheshire cat and asked him "Which path should I take?" He said, "Where do you want to go?" Alice answered, "I don't know" and the Cheshire Cat responded "Then it doesn't matter which path you choose."

Planning is not about perfect execution. It's about having an idea on what you're trying to achieve. Having the perfect plan could mean you never go bankrupt. It could mean you become a billionaire. It could also never be used or life's randomness could wipe you out (as in BB's example above). But having no plan is no better than a random outcome and possibly worse.

I like Dave Ramsey's potentially paradoxical view on this which coincides with my natural inclination... I save so I can give. He also has a "thirds" philosophy: 1/3 of your salary is for taxes, 1/3 is for expenses (including tithing/giving), and 1/3 is for saving. If one can do this, one has a very good chance of being able to retire, having money to pay for emergencies, and be able to give abundantly and/or have generational wealth that you pass along.
 
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