DNC Debates, Round 2 - Page 7
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  1. #79
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Thing is, Brooks is absolutely right. I think the Democrats have already lost and we have Trump for another four years as a result...
    i'm not sure why you would think that, the first primaries are still a long way away. all brooks is doing is whining about not being able to have conservative republicanism without the embarrassment of trump. he did a lot of the same after it became painfully obvious to a lot of folks how stupid w was (post katrina). the focus of the gop has not changed, they are just saying the quiet parts out loud now. and like most good authoritarians, they are also using a lot of bluster to make any opposition to them seem pointless, but that has been going on since gingrich/limbaugh, all that is changed is the ugliness/visciousness of modern american conservatism is being put front and center.
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Thing is, Brooks is absolutely right. I think the Democrats have already lost and we have Trump for another four years as a result...
    I'm not so sure. Trump's base hasn't really expanded since his election. All the Democrats have to do is increase their turnout. I don't think the Bernie-bots are going to have the same poison-pill attitude they had in the last election, and none of the candidate carry the kind of baggage Hillary did.
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  3. #81
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i'm not sure why you would think that, the first primaries are still a long way away. all brooks is doing is whining about not being able to have conservative republicanism without the embarrassment of trump. he did a lot of the same after it became painfully obvious to a lot of folks how stupid w was (post katrina). the focus of the gop has not changed, they are just saying the quiet parts out loud now. and like most good authoritarians, they are also using a lot of bluster to make any opposition to them seem pointless, but that has been going on since gingrich/limbaugh, all that is changed is the ugliness/visciousness of modern american conservatism is being put front and center.
    I can see that you don't like him. I don't get that at all and I'm puzzled that you do. All he's saying is that the Democratic party is in danger of being drawn far to the left of the center where the bulk of the electorate is...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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  4. #82
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jthomas666 View Post
    I'm not so sure. Trump's base hasn't really expanded since his election. All the Democrats have to do is increase their turnout. I don't think the Bernie-bots are going to have the same poison-pill attitude they had in the last election, and none of the candidate carry the kind of baggage Hillary did.
    Obviously, I hope you're right. I do have concerns...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  5. #83
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2


  6. #84
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    I can see that you don't like him. I don't get that at all and I'm puzzled that you do. All he's saying is that the Democratic party is in danger of being drawn far to the left of the center where the bulk of the electorate is...
    i have never liked brooks. he comes across as vapid. he has been saying that about democrats about as long as he has been writing. imho, the whole never-trump, "reasonable conservative" crowd should spend more time focusing on where conservatism went wrong (and brooks was a cheerleader for it for a long time) rather than lecturing democrats on how they should stop what they are doing and listen to them.

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    Last edited by 92tide; June 30th, 2019 at 11:08 AM.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  7. #85
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    I can see that you don't like him. I don't get that at all and I'm puzzled that you do. All he's saying is that the Democratic party is in danger of being drawn far to the left of the center where the bulk of the electorate is...
    I disagree with the assumption the country is as right as you and others seem to think it is. What has pulled politics right in this country has mostly been achieved by the DNP abandoning left policies after losing the deep south bloc to racism. This disengaged existing voter and never engaged potential new voters. You add in some gerrymandering and poll tax/intelligence test redux...and you end up in a country where a quarter to a third of the country is the tail wagging the dog. You can see this consistently reveal itself in surveys that poll consistent voter v. broad population surveys on political agendas. People still engaged in this process are more conservative.


    Granted, I understand where you're coming from in terms of electoralism. Electoralism is ultimately "going where the puck is" and in some games that may work. But my point is much the same as my stance on diet coke: if I'm going to have something that is bad for me as a treat, why would I decide to have a knock-off instead of the real thing? You're never going to pick off these David Brooks types. They voted for Trump in 2016. Hell, nearly half the voters in 2018 voted for a known creep pedophile in Alabama.

    You and I have butted heads on this several times and I think it is because I'm arguing "go where the puck will be" even if it means losing in 2020. The existing electorate's conservative voters will hold their noses and vote their modern small holdings/landed gentry self-interest. If the DNP goes where the puck is yet again they risk losing 2020 and maybe America altogether. Maybe the fight for the soul of this country is already over due to the negligence of the DNP in the Clintonite era. The DNP cannot win in 2020 by offering another Clintonite/Blairite centrist. They might not be able to win with a more mainstream left candidate either but I'm concerned that a centrist candidate or another over-sold under-delivered centrist presidency from the DNP will kill the party altogether.
    Last edited by rgw; June 30th, 2019 at 11:39 AM.
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  8. #86
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    I disagree with the assumption the country is as right as you and others seem to think it is. What has pulled politics right in this country has mostly been achieved by the DNP abandoning left policies after losing the deep south bloc to racism. This disengaged existing voter and never engaged potential new voters. You add in some gerrymandering and poll tax/intelligence test redux...and you end up in a country where a quarter to a third of the country is the tail wagging the dog. You can see this consistently reveal itself in surveys that poll consistent voter v. broad population surveys on political agendas. People still engaged in this process are more conservative.


    Granted, I understand where you're coming from in terms of electoralism. Electoralism is ultimately "going where the puck is" and in some games that may work. But my point is much the same as my stance on diet coke: if I'm going to have something that is bad for me as a treat, why would I decide to have a knock-off instead of the real thing? You're never going to pick off these David Brooks types. They voted for Trump in 2016. Hell, nearly half the voters in 2018 voted for a known creep pedophile in Alabama.

    You and I have butted heads on this several times and I think it is because I'm arguing "go where the puck will be" even if it means losing in 2020. The existing electorate's conservative voters will hold their noses and vote their modern small holdings/landed gentry self-interest. If the DNP goes where the puck is yet again they risk losing 2020 and maybe America altogether. Maybe the fight for the soul of this country is already over due to the negligence of the DNP in the Clintonite era. The DNP cannot win in 2020 by offering another Clintonite/Blairite centrist. They might not be able to win with a more mainstream left candidate either but I'm concerned that a centrist candidate or another over-sold under-delivered centrist presidency from the DNP will kill the party altogether.
    i don't think you can lay that solely at the feet of the dnp. the rise of am talk radio and fox news moved the overton window way to the right during the 90s-00s. a lot of what you have seen by the dnp is/was being done in an attempt to stay relevant/competitive in our political system.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they dont have to worry about the answers.

    Thomas Pynchon

  9. #87
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    There is a much more lively fight between left and right voices on the internet. Hell, I'd argue the quality is on the left's side. Most of the right's voices on the internet are melvins, cranks, or failed comics. Its just a ton cheaper to get into internet punditry/commentary which is a boon for the left because they don't need some rich conservative to prop them up to get on cable television or radio.
    Last edited by rgw; June 30th, 2019 at 12:35 PM.
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  10. #88
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i don't think you can lay that solely at the feet of the dnp. the rise of am talk radio and fox news moved the overton window way to the right during the 90s-00s. a lot of what you have seen by the dnp is/was being done in an attempt to stay relevant/competitive in our political system.
    The move right happened with Reagan, not Daddy Bush. The Cold War was giving Americans two choices... 1) A more social reform with a conservative interior for an administration or 2) A deep conservative administration. Reagan brought neo liberalism to the fold and pretty much ended the gap between Republicans and Democrats because 1) The Republicans now wanted to be the party of Reagan and 2) the Democrats didn't want to get smoked like Carter did for standing up for well meaning principles. Basically the Nixon-Kennedy divide was done. Point is there isn't that much different between a candidate like Reagan and the Clintons.

    If you are strictly saying that Gingrich winning the House was the start of the shift right and not Reagan destroying the old Democratic Party then yes the rise of radio was the start of it.
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  11. #89
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    I disagree with the assumption the country is as right as you and others seem to think it is. What has pulled politics right in this country has mostly been achieved by the DNP abandoning left policies after losing the deep south bloc to racism. This disengaged existing voter and never engaged potential new voters. You add in some gerrymandering and poll tax/intelligence test redux...and you end up in a country where a quarter to a third of the country is the tail wagging the dog. You can see this consistently reveal itself in surveys that poll consistent voter v. broad population surveys on political agendas. People still engaged in this process are more conservative.


    Granted, I understand where you're coming from in terms of electoralism. Electoralism is ultimately "going where the puck is" and in some games that may work. But my point is much the same as my stance on diet coke: if I'm going to have something that is bad for me as a treat, why would I decide to have a knock-off instead of the real thing? You're never going to pick off these David Brooks types. They voted for Trump in 2016. Hell, nearly half the voters in 2018 voted for a known creep pedophile in Alabama.

    You and I have butted heads on this several times and I think it is because I'm arguing "go where the puck will be" even if it means losing in 2020. The existing electorate's conservative voters will hold their noses and vote their modern small holdings/landed gentry self-interest. If the DNP goes where the puck is yet again they risk losing 2020 and maybe America altogether. Maybe the fight for the soul of this country is already over due to the negligence of the DNP in the Clintonite era. The DNP cannot win in 2020 by offering another Clintonite/Blairite centrist. They might not be able to win with a more mainstream left candidate either but I'm concerned that a centrist candidate or another over-sold under-delivered centrist presidency from the DNP will kill the party altogether.
    Yet you still believe a "progressive" candidate will win while acknowledging the fact that the majority of the voting electorate is conservative.... I guess Obama and Bill Clinton winning by large numbers points that centrists are not electable.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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  12. #90
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    We get fascists in this political reality because of the failure of centrist liberalism. Let’s continue down the path of diffident liberalism and see what this country becomes. I reckon by the pulse I’m reading here we will soon find out.
    I owe it to the people to have a signature...so here goes nothing!

  13. #91
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: DNC Debates, Round 2

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    We get fascists in this political reality because of the failure of centrist liberalism..
    Im curious of how you came to that conclusion.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

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